Are people's objecting to an online subsim per se, or merely Ubi's "effort" here?

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

A good example of a AAA sim would be Birds of Steel, but they are also a huge exception to the rule.

May I ask what planet you are on if you think Birds of Steel is a AAA simulation?

I may be missing something. Not having a console I've resorted to good old Google and YouTube to find out about this game. Not simulator. Game.

First I visited Konami's site for it, where the trailer only showed external 'arcade' views - futher investigation shows that the smaller aircraft do have cockpit views, but they certainly (in my opinion) don't match up to Cliffs, nor DCS titles, nor FSX for that matter. May as well include FS9 as well. BoS = PoS as far as simulation goes, and that's what we're talking about.

I'd put it alongside H.A.W.X, but at least that can be played on PC.

Over to you to deride my opinions again.

[andwii]

Im a bit late to the party but all this complaining before the god dang game even goes to closed beta is crazy. We have no idea how good or bad its going to be, and it might just be good. Now I don't like MMO's at all (except Star Trek Online) but I want to see this from a perspective of unbiased, and all this complaining should be reserved to when the actual game comes out. There is prolly going to be a disclose agreement for the closed beta, but I doubt anyone is going to follow it so when it comes out I am willing to bet you will find game play vids on the internet.

[Herr-Berbunch]

You're right, andwii, but the OP asked a question and both sides must now fight it out until the bitter end, or at least until the game gets released and we actually know what we're talking about. Until then we'll happily/unhappily speculate and bicker like schoolkids.

Oh, and my dad's bigger than your dad.

[Ducimus]

Reading through some of this thread, something I blabbered about some months ago occurs to me.

We probably won't see another real submarine simulation ever again. Sub sim's are a nitch market within a nitch market. In the larger picture, they were a fad in gaming started when primarily geeks, and technically oriented people owned home computers. It's probably amazing they've lasted this long. With that train of thought one could reasonably say, "well, we should be thanking ubisoft for anything at all", however i think that time is past with SH5. That was most likely, the last nail in the old and creaky sub sim coffin.

Unless of course hell freezes over and SHO has the simulation base of Sh3, with the mechanical improvements drawn from Sh4 and Sh5* and your willing to play online shelling out money for improvements. If not, then get used to the idea of playing Sh3, 4, or 5 ten or fifteen years from now; assuming your still into sub sims at that point in time.



*(yes, disregarding bugs and broken features, they both improve on the simulation from Sh3: Sh4 with thermal layers, and Sh5 with the effects of unimplemented hydrodynamic drag),

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

May I ask what planet you are on if you think Birds of Steel is a AAA simulation?

I may be missing something. Not having a console I've resorted to good old Google and YouTube to find out about this game. Not simulator. Game.

First I visited Konami's site for it, where the trailer only showed external 'arcade' views - futher investigation shows that the smaller aircraft do have cockpit views, but they certainly (in my opinion) don't match up to Cliffs, nor DCS titles, nor FSX for that matter. May as well include FS9 as well. BoS = PoS as far as simulation goes, and that's what we're talking about.

I'd put it alongside H.A.W.X, but at least that can be played on PC.

Over to you to deride my opinions again.

Yeah, how about you at least read a review for simmers by simmers before posting an uninformed, prejudiced opinion?

Or read the SimHQ review which praises it.

It***8217;s simple. Gaijin hit a home run with this one. They listened to their customers, and they must have read suggestions in reviews on their other console games. With options, choices, and tons of content, all at a great price, you can***8217;t go wrong with this purchase. And a developer like Gaijin Entertainment deserves our console customer support for going outside of the norm.

We need to support games like this to get more of them, and less of the "all action, no substance" games that have flooded the console market.

So yeah, maybe you should do some rudimentary research before you trashtalk a great game.

[Herr-Berbunch]

You said it - game. A console game for the console gamers. Doesn't compete nor compare.

I did go to a couple of flight simming sites, both had no mention apart from slight reference in amonst the fora, and none of it good.

[Julhelm]

Yeah, whatever. All of your precious subsims are just that, games.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Yeah, whatever. All of your precious subsims are just that, games.

Now now, no need to get mad if you are wrong about something.

[longam]

Welcome to Subsim, a friendly place to...

I'm reminded of the release of SH5 and the low blood sugar environment that followed.

@Julhelm - really?

[0rpheus]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Yeah, how about you at least read a review for simmers by simmers before posting an uninformed, prejudiced opinion?

Or read the SimHQ review which praises it.

So yeah, maybe you should do some rudimentary research before you trashtalk a great game.

It's made by Gaijin for the console market, in the same manner as IL2-Birds of Prey. I have BOP for the XBOX, and Wings of Prey (almost identical game) for the PC, alongside Cliffs of Dover, IL2 1946 and DCS A-10. I've also tried the demo for BoS. This makes my opinion relevant, by your criteria.

The Gaijin games are categorically not 'simulations' in the sense of the PC IL-2 or A10 etc. They are games that come with a 'sim' flight model, nothing more. BoS in particular is appalling; terribly shonky framerate for a console and the FM is like treacle. 'Triple A simulation' it is not.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Yeah, whatever. All of your precious subsims are just that, games.

It's all 'games' when it boils down to it, no need to be facetious. I note from your post count you're relatively new here - the hostility thing really isn't welcome. Basic civility will likely extend the duration of your stay

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

It's dishonest in the sense that racing has a disproportionately bigger audience and even racing sims like RFactor or Project C.A.R.S. have substantial mainstream appeal. Racing simulation is a not a niche genre like submarine simulation or air combat simulation.

So its not relevant to a discussion of sumulators because its TOO successful? Meanwhile you're banging away about a console would-be sim...

I don't understand the logical premise you're operating under. It seems to be entirely predicated on expounding your own exaustion with dealing with people who have opinions.

You're basically saying that unless you start your own business and make your own product people should basically not have opinions as consumers and take whats given them without commentary.

I think maybe you don't belong on the internet.

[THE_MASK]

This game can only be 1 of 2 things . The greatest subsim game ever made for pc or the biggest piece of junk ever made for pc . I bet its the latter .

[Herr-Berbunch]

@Orpheus - thank you for your valued expertise on this matter. What you surmised was what I spent 10-15 minutes searching the web for, and found. Eventually, there isn't much reference to it in my usual places - obviously for a reason.

Nice to hear it from the horses mouth though.

Or, err, read it from the horses hooves..?

[0rpheus]

Triple A horse-sims?

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by 0rpheus

The Gaijin games are categorically not 'simulations' in the sense of the PC IL-2 or A10 etc. They are games that come with a 'sim' flight model, nothing more. BoS in particular is appalling; terribly shonky framerate for a console and the FM is like treacle. 'Triple A simulation' it is not.

TBH I played Wings of Prey and it really is "lite sim" in the vein of Strike Fighters. Why I say it is AAA and DCS is not is because the Gaijin games have the kind of cinematic, epic production values we associate with the term AAA. AAA as used today really has nothing to do with quality - it is simply the gaming equivalent of Hollywood Blockbuster movies. IE huge budgets, lots of eyecandy, tightly crafted "experience".

For example SH4 and SH5 sit firmly in AAA land - they have huge focus on superb visuals, soundtrack and generally try to craft an epic blockbuster-like atmosphere. DCS doesn't do this. While it has excellent production values as a simulator it is not really a AAA production.

And I do think there is a place for all types of games: I play Strike Fighters regularily, I play FSX sometimes, I go back and play AOTD and Fast Attack regularily and I had great fun with Wings of Prey and Apache Air Assault. I even enjoyed the first HAWX for what it was, even if I had to suppress the grognard in me. I'm thrilled about DCS now that they're opening up for 3rd party modules.

Interestingly I've been playing the PC MMO version of Birds of Steel and to me the FM feels just like IL-2. Don't like it much tbh.

It's all 'games' when it boils down to it, no need to be facetious. I note from your post count you're relatively new here - the hostility thing really isn't welcome. Basic civility will likely extend the duration of your stay

Actually I've been lurking for 5 years. I just don't post a whole lot except in the classic subsims board. My point is I see a lot of reactionary complaining here and nothing productive. The console-centric AAA business model isn't going anywhere soon, and the mobile/tablet market mainly consists to 90% of Rovio-wannabes run by money-junkies whose sole interest is quick profits and where terms like "artistic integrity" never even enters the vocabulary. Then on PC the publishers have been crying about piracy for years, while looking at the amazing success of World of Warcraft. So now the latest fad is to monetize every single franchise on PC by making it an MMO that can't be pirated and doesn't suffer from poor sales relative to console because they operate on a different business model.

That they make it microtransaction instead of subscription-based is because it makes them more money. I mean, the very first title I ever shipped started as a $3 iTunes download, flopped, and then management had us crunch for a few months to convert the title to free-to-play. Now the title is a free download but you can buy things like powerups to use during matches or $30 clothes sets that powers up your character, and you'd be surprised at how much more income* this scheme generates compare to the $3 download model.

It turns out that the average person is more reluctant to pay a $3 admission to play a game than they are to pay 10x more for an ingame item as long as the game itself doesn't cost anything. It's simple behavioral economics at work. For an even better example, look at Farmville. The entire experience is designed to hook you and make you pay by consistently forcing you to endure ever longer periods of downtime unless you buy ingame currency. It's gameplay as designed by psychologists.

Say what you want about this but can you really fault businesses for wanting in on the same cake when they see the enormous payoff of the Zynga model?

So in conclusion, and what I've been trying to say this whole time, is that all this complaining really amounts to nothing. No matter how much you complain, noone else is going to make another AOTD or SH3 anytime soon, when they could be doing the next Farmville or World of Warcraft instead and basically print money at will (Of course this never actually happens except if you're the 1% but then again capitalism is all about the 99% all thinking someday they and only they will become the 1%). It just won't happen.

So the only reasonable course of action if you really love this niche genre is to take the plunge, form a team and start developing in our own spare time.

And even if only one such enterprise ends up into something along the lines of the first Strike Fighters release, we'll be better off as a community than we are now.

*I know you probably think mobile market is a win win moneymaker, but I can tell you I never got paid for that game, nor the next one I shipped. So I don't really like being called an "industry apologist". I'm just a guy trying to make a living in a highly competitive and often ruthless industry.