Iron Coffins arrived...just in the nick of time - Page 2

Catfish · 12-11-05, 09:19 AM

Hello,
the discussion on Werner's "Iron coffins" came up before here. I think it is still one of the better books. You can certainly read Doenitz' memoirs or some other books written by people who are so proud of their deeds during ww2 that they obviously forgot pain and fear, let alone the Nazi regime. History reads different if it is written by Caesar rather than by one of his centurios. If you need facts on technics, both kinds of literature will not get you far.

This is a critical book. Some ranges of electronic warfare as well as some incidents Werner describes are plain wrong. In the german edition "Eiserne Saerge" there is a foreword by Hans Helmut Kirst, who is a writer of partly fictious war books himself. This is a book that simply does not glorify war, as well as the book "Das Boot". Both authors have therefore been attacked by all kinds of people that did learn nothing from WW2, or often survived it by not taking part.

You will not find a word of Mr. Rohwer criticizing Doenitz or the guilt of the Nazi regime. Saying he is the leading naval historian is based on the fact that people hating the war did not want to write about it any more. He does. When you find any criticism in this "historian's" writing it will be limited to problems with logistics hindering Doenitz to win the war. Even today there are few survivors that will tell you about "their" war without need. You should read Rohwers outpours with a grain of salt - as well as Werner's.

Greetings,
Catfish

PatAWilson · 12-12-05, 11:53 AM

It is often a fact that first person accounts are rife with errors. I am an airplane junky more than anyting else and pilot combat reports are full of inaccuracies. WWII infantry combat reports on the allied side report a Tigre tank behind every hill. WWII infantry combat reports on the German side frequently seem to expound on the vast superiority of the German soldier ... ummm ... if you won all of the battles then how did you lose the war? However, factual errors do not IMHO make first person accounts less valuable.

First person accounts are more about what it was like and what was the common soldiers perspective. The common soldiers perspective was often wrong, so why should one expect first person accounts to be 100% accurate? The feeling that one gets from Iron Coffins comes closer to putting one in a U-Boat under attack than anything else I have read or seen. You don't have to take its account verbatim to accept that this is what a German U-boat commander might have felt.

Bungo_Pete · 12-12-05, 09:14 PM

I was borders books today to see if iron coffins was ther I didnt see it an saw a book called..."wolf pack the story of the uboat war in ww2" 29$ but it looks ok then as I was leaving the milatry section i glanced down in the corner at the bottom rack I almost missed it but there it was "iron coffins" for 17$

it now sits on my desk ready to read

Kaptan Tommy · 12-12-05, 09:28 PM

I read "Iron Coffins" several years ago - and loved it. Being a big sub lover since the 50's, I don't care if the uh, facts, are sometimes skewed. If the story grips me and keeps me reading I consider it a "good read".

Oh, and my first sub book was "The Real Book About Submarines" which I took out from my grammar school library.

I just found it on eBay about six months ago and bought it. I re-read it and enjoyed it just as much now as I did 50 years ago. Of course, technology has moved along just a bit since then...

Kpt. Lehmann · 12-13-05, 03:56 AM

... Just finished reading Iron Coffins 3-4 days ago... couldn't put it down... sacrificed sleep to finish it.

I don't care about possible discrepancies. It was an awesome story.

At the very least... Cmdr Herbert Werner was there... we weren't.

Anyone deciding not to buy or read Iron Coffins based on the criticism of others is really missing out on quite an adventure.

Marhkimov · 12-13-05, 03:59 AM

Kpt. Lehmann,

Check your PM!

Dowly · 12-13-05, 04:58 AM

Oh no! I have only ~100 pages till I`m finished!

I donÂ´t want it to end!

Camaero · 12-13-05, 04:59 AM

I really can't wait to start reading this book.

Since Christmas is coming up, would you guys suggest a couple more to add to my list? Anything comparable to Winged Victory? (As far as a true story being told with fictional elements added in.) (PM them to me if you want, I hate to hijack this thread...)

Kaptan Tommy · 12-13-05, 07:05 AM

Hey Dowly, don't you just wish you were reading "Book One" of a series? Say, a series of ten books?

Dowly · 12-13-05, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaptan Tommy

Hey Dowly, don't you just wish you were reading "Book One" of a series? Say, a series of ten books?

YES YES YES!!!!

I want it to be a never ending story.

Curval · 12-16-05, 10:52 AM

Well, I'm almost done it now. This trip I am on has been very sucessful but just too many darn parties. It is tough to read when I get back to my hotel room at 6.00am. I've had to read many chapters a second time because I was too liquified to remember what I had read previously.

I didn't think Indians were big drinkers/partyers. Boy was I wrong.

Dowly · 12-16-05, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curval

Well, I'm almost done it now. This trip I am on has been very sucessful but just too many darn parties. It is tough to read when I get back to my hotel room at 6.00am. I've had to read many chapters a second time because I was too liquified to remember what I had read previously.

I didn't think Indians were big drinkers/partyers. Boy was I wrong.

:rotfl:

12-12-05, 09:28 PM	#4
Kaptan Tommy Planesman Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: USA Carson City, NV Posts: 182 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I read "Iron Coffins" several years ago - and loved it. Being a big sub lover since the 50's, I don't care if the uh, facts, are sometimes skewed. If the story grips me and keeps me reading I consider it a "good read". Oh, and my first sub book was "The Real Book About Submarines" which I took out from my grammar school library. I just found it on eBay about six months ago and bought it. I re-read it and enjoyed it just as much now as I did 50 years ago. Of course, technology has moved along just a bit since then... __________________ Quit farting around reading the forums and sink some ships!

12-13-05, 03:56 AM	#5
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 6,994 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	... Just finished reading Iron Coffins 3-4 days ago... couldn't put it down... sacrificed sleep to finish it. I don't care about possible discrepancies. It was an awesome story. At the very least... Cmdr Herbert Werner was there... we weren't. Anyone deciding not to buy or read Iron Coffins based on the criticism of others is really missing out on quite an adventure. __________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock

12-13-05, 03:59 AM	#6
Marhkimov Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California, USA Posts: 2,377 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Kpt. Lehmann, Check your PM! __________________ It takes two to tango

12-13-05, 04:59 AM	#8
Camaero The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA, Massachusetts Posts: 1,477 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	I really can't wait to start reading this book. Since Christmas is coming up, would you guys suggest a couple more to add to my list? Anything comparable to Winged Victory? (As far as a true story being told with fictional elements added in.) (PM them to me if you want, I hate to hijack this thread...) __________________

12-13-05, 07:05 AM	#9
Kaptan Tommy Planesman Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: USA Carson City, NV Posts: 182 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Hey Dowly, don't you just wish you were reading "Book One" of a series? Say, a series of ten books? __________________ Quit farting around reading the forums and sink some ships!

12-11-05, 09:19 AM	#1
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,768 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Hello, the discussion on Werner's "Iron coffins" came up before here. I think it is still one of the better books. You can certainly read Doenitz' memoirs or some other books written by people who are so proud of their deeds during ww2 that they obviously forgot pain and fear, let alone the Nazi regime. History reads different if it is written by Caesar rather than by one of his centurios. If you need facts on technics, both kinds of literature will not get you far. This is a critical book. Some ranges of electronic warfare as well as some incidents Werner describes are plain wrong. In the german edition "Eiserne Saerge" there is a foreword by Hans Helmut Kirst, who is a writer of partly fictious war books himself. This is a book that simply does not glorify war, as well as the book "Das Boot". Both authors have therefore been attacked by all kinds of people that did learn nothing from WW2, or often survived it by not taking part. You will not find a word of Mr. Rohwer criticizing Doenitz or the guilt of the Nazi regime. Saying he is the leading naval historian is based on the fact that people hating the war did not want to write about it any more. He does. When you find any criticism in this "historian's" writing it will be limited to problems with logistics hindering Doenitz to win the war. Even today there are few survivors that will tell you about "their" war without need. You should read Rohwers outpours with a grain of salt - as well as Werner's. Greetings, Catfish

12-12-05, 11:53 AM	#2
PatAWilson Watch Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 16 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	It is often a fact that first person accounts are rife with errors. I am an airplane junky more than anyting else and pilot combat reports are full of inaccuracies. WWII infantry combat reports on the allied side report a Tigre tank behind every hill. WWII infantry combat reports on the German side frequently seem to expound on the vast superiority of the German soldier ... ummm ... if you won all of the battles then how did you lose the war? However, factual errors do not IMHO make first person accounts less valuable. First person accounts are more about what it was like and what was the common soldiers perspective. The common soldiers perspective was often wrong, so why should one expect first person accounts to be 100% accurate? The feeling that one gets from Iron Coffins comes closer to putting one in a U-Boat under attack than anything else I have read or seen. You don't have to take its account verbatim to accept that this is what a German U-boat commander might have felt.

12-12-05, 09:14 PM	#3
Bungo_Pete Medic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara,calif Posts: 159 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	I was borders books today to see if iron coffins was ther I didnt see it an saw a book called..."wolf pack the story of the uboat war in ww2" 29$ but it looks ok then as I was leaving the milatry section i glanced down in the corner at the bottom rack I almost missed it but there it was "iron coffins" for 17$ it now sits on my desk ready to read

12-13-05, 04:58 AM	#7
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,054 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Oh no! I have only ~100 pages till I`m finished! I donÂ´t want it to end!

12-16-05, 10:52 AM	#11
Curval Navy Dude Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bermuda Posts: 177 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Well, I'm almost done it now. This trip I am on has been very sucessful but just too many darn parties. It is tough to read when I get back to my hotel room at 6.00am. I've had to read many chapters a second time because I was too liquified to remember what I had read previously. I didn't think Indians were big drinkers/partyers. Boy was I wrong.