Why the Submarine is the unsung hero at Midway -- true story.

[Bilge_Rat]

I have studied this area extensively, since the WW2 Pacific Theatre has always been my favorite, and I never saw any compelling evidence that Roosevelt or anyone else in the U.S. high command "knew" Pearl harbour was coming.

Many people suspected in the fall of 1941 that Japan would not back down and would make a grab for the Dutch Indies but everyone thought the attack, if there was one, would be against the Philippines. No one thought the japanese had the capability to strike PH.

As to the interesting what ifs, there are a few:

1. what would the U.S. have done if Japanese forces had bypassed U.S. and British territory entirely and just invaded the Dutch East Indies? Could Roosevelt have convinced Congress to declare war to protect a european colony? after all, the US did not react when the Japanese took over french Indochina in sept. 1940.

2. what would the U.S. have done if on dec. 8, 1941, Hitler who had been kept in the dark about PH had disavowed his ally and declared war on Japan? Hitler was quite capable of turning on an ally if it suited him.

Roosevelt did not need PH to take the U.S. into WW2. Don't forget that in the fall of 1941, the U.S. was already fighting an undeclared war against Germany. U.S. Navy ships were escorting convoys in the North Atlantic and had depth charged U-Boats. The U.S. destroyer Reuben James was sunk by a U-Boat in october 1941. Many historians believe that Roosevelt was getting U.S. public opinion ready to declare war on Germany in the spring of 1942. PH just accelerated the process.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by WernherVonTrapp

Actually, Hitler declared "War" on the U.S. as a direct result of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, in support of his new Asian ally.
Not that I believe in any conspiracy theory, but you should read a book titled "Infamy" by John Toland. It presents (with evidence) some very compelling arguments supporting Roosevelt's knowledge of an impending attack on Pearl Harbor.

I did read it. Thirty years ago when it came out. That's part of the problem. 70 years on and no uncovered forgotten orders or deathbed confessions. No one cashing in on the story of the century in their old age. No smoking gun to produce a breakthough that gets the PH conspiracy out of the shadowy crackpot realm of JFK assassination plots or faked moon landings.

As for Toland, he has always been a somewhat controversial figure in historical circles. A writer of biographies and histories, Toland has no formal training in history--no advanced degrees, and not even an undergraduate course to his name.

Toland makes no pretense of being a professional historian. He relied heavily on personal interviews for his information, gladly granting anonymity to his sources--a practice that drove documentation-driven historians wild. His books were structured with drama in mind, and read more like exciting novels than dry history. Readers embrace him but historians tend not to.

[Horus3K]

I wrote my i some kind of prework-hurry, so i may have overshooted a bit

I think PH wasnt a real conspiracy, just very cleverly used by Roosevelt to reach his goals...i just wanted to say that in both cases, PH and 9/11, US government knew that something was about to happen, and after it did happen you can use those incidents to reach the political goals you couldnt reach by "normal" means, which in my eyes isnt a "real" conspiracy theory, just very hard to judge nowadays by either lack of evidence or/and clouded by propaganda from all sides...

Per definition, conspiracy theories even ignores hard evidence...for example that the moon landing was a fake

Quote fron Sailor Steve:
"We left Japan with a choice, even more than one."

Your are basically right here, but those choices were unacceptable for the Japanese for many reasons, may it come from traditions or their weird code of honour, but mostly because the Japanese were transformed from a "normal" nation to a rigid Imperialistic and very militaristic nation with ever growing military, and for that you need so many ressources that from a certain point you cant aquire those by peaceful means!

In germanys case, getting rid of national unemployment and ever growing military, germany was basically bankrupt and to go on with that, their first action in any invaded country was to plunder its gold reserves...

Also in their religious belief Japan was created by the gods, and if one nation should rule the world it should be them...and im sure if the Emperor didnt stopped the war they would have fight to the last men, even if all their cities got nuked.

I also love a good debate and im not paranoid hehehe...i just wasnt sure how people would react on my post

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Horus3K

I also love a good debate and im not paranoid hehehe...i just wasnt sure how people would react on my post

You don't have to worry about that around here...up to a point. 9/11 discussions are better left to the General Topics forums, but anything war-related is welcome. Just be ready to back up any claims for the wilder stuff. You won't be pilloried, but you will get demanding arguments.