Obama to restart Guantanamo military commissions

[yubba]

As always, pale face speak with forked tongue.

[August]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Sad. He is no better then Bush.

Or,... Obama has access to the same classified reports which have managed to convince him that it really is a bad idea to let those people go free.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by August

Or,... Obama has access to the same classified reports which have managed to convince him that it really is a bad idea to let those people go free.

Probably. I was personally involved in some of the operations that took some of these people as prisoners, at least in Iraq. Most of the time, the info we got on these people came from other Iraqis who were terrified about the possibility of their families being killed. For those who lack context, simply approaching coalition forces or worse, a base, is tantamount to suicide. If we don't shoot them by accident, odds are good that someone, somewhere, with a connection to the insurgency will see what they are doing and report it, which is as good as having your family dead already.

At first I questioned the reliability of the intel. After all, who's to say that Iraqi "x" isn't giving us false intel on Iraqi "y" because he want to obtain his goat herd or something? How the hell would I know? My training in Iraqi culture amounted to about 3 hours of informative briefs and "I don't even know how many hours" of other marines not taking it seriously. Can't really blame them. They're naval assault infantry, not garrison troops, not police.

Personal contact with the informants showed me otherwise. You could tell who they were, even in a group of other Iraqis, and they often were placed in groups of actual insurgents to throw any insurgent observers off. They literally reeked of fear. Unlike insurgents, who only gave you hateful looks or no looks at all, they would periodically give you this "help me" glance. It is difficult to describe, to say the least. It was the look of a person who had nothing left to lose or risk. It was the look of a person who was just utterly broken; willing to go against everything his culture was about and everything he was taught because he was more afraid of the insurgents.

For the most part, the people we have taken into custody and placed in Guantanamo are the same people who intimidated our informants so. Nothing is beneath them. They are idealists fighting for an ideology that justifies the torture and killing of anyone in their path by saying that a god considers them to be beneath human dignity. They treat women as objects and non-believers as sub-humans.

Beyond that, what most people seem to forget is that these people are non-uniformed combatants. We'd be perfectly within our rights to just hang them and forget about them, as per the Geneva convention. The only reason that any of this Guantanamo crap is even an issue is because of politics. Politics that our President is now being forced to rethink because the right actually was right.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Probably. I was personally involved in some of the operations that took some of these people as prisoners, at least in Iraq. Most of the time, the info we got on these people came from other Iraqis who were terrified about the possibility of their families being killed. For those who lack context, simply approaching coalition forces or worse, a base, is tantamount to suicide. If we don't shoot them by accident, odds are good that someone, somewhere, with a connection to the insurgency will see what they are doing and report it, which is as good as having your family dead already.

At first I questioned the reliability of the intel. After all, who's to say that Iraqi "x" isn't giving us false intel on Iraqi "y" because he want to obtain his goat herd or something? How the hell would I know? My training in Iraqi culture amounted to about 3 hours of informative briefs and "I don't even know how many hours" of other marines not taking it seriously. Can't really blame them. They're naval assault infantry, not garrison troops, not police.

Personal contact with the informants showed me otherwise. You could tell who they were, even in a group of other Iraqis, and they often were placed in groups of actual insurgents to throw any insurgent observers off. They literally reeked of fear. Unlike insurgents, who only gave you hateful looks or no looks at all, they would periodically give you this "help me" glance. It is difficult to describe, to say the least. It was the look of a person who had nothing left to lose or risk. It was the look of a person who was just utterly broken; willing to go against everything his culture was about and everything he was taught because he was more afraid of the insurgents.

For the most part, the people we have taken into custody and placed in Guantanamo are the same people who intimidated our informants so. Nothing is beneath them. They are idealists fighting for an ideology that justifies the torture and killing of anyone in their path by saying that a god considers them to be beneath human dignity. They treat women as objects and non-believers as sub-humans.

Beyond that, what most people seem to forget is that these people are non-uniformed combatants. We'd be perfectly within our rights to just hang them and forget about them, as per the Geneva convention. The only reason that any of this Guantanamo crap is even an issue is because of politics. Politics that our President is now being forced to rethink because the right actually was right.

Great post

Obama has access to the same classified reports which have managed to convince him that it really is a bad idea to let those people go free.

Since it was never proposed to let them go free that is one hell of a strawman.

Great point

Donkey Oaty.
Attack that windmill

Reality is, these people belong there and Gitmo is a vital part of the war on terror, he knows this now, end of story.

The reality is that Gitmo is a stain on America which needs cleansing, it cannot be cleaned unless the prisoners can be shifted to other prisons and brought to trial. He knows this now cannot happen with idiots blocking the moves, end of story.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Beyond that, what most people seem to forget is that these people are non-uniformed combatants.

What people forget is that these people are SUSPECTED of being non-uniformed combatants. We don't know how many of them were rounded up by the bounty hunters we employed at the start of the AF campaign.

I am not comfortable with the United States holding political prisoners in a concentration camp for the rest of their lives if

1. They have not been brought to trial
2. Or worse, found not-guilty in a trial but are being held.... just because.

We currently have existing procedures for trials involving classified information. This is nothing new and the proceedures work. There are even current exclusions to prevent the accused from viewing or hearing about very specific sensitive evidence. Such evidence is examined in camera. No need to create new rules, the existing rules will suffice.

Americans do not hold political prisoners in concentration camps. That's how I was brought up, That's what I fought for and spilled my blood on foreign soil for.

We'd be perfectly within our rights to just hang them and forget about them, as per the Geneva convention.

Only if you consider the Geneva Convention that the US uses. The rest of the world with the exception of the US, Iran, Israel, Pakistan, Turkey, and Iraq, has ratified Protocol 1 (Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), 8 June 1977.)

Under the Geneva Convention that the rest of the world uses, no we can't just hang them.

This what makes the United States spouting about the Geneva Conventions so hypocritical. We still have not ratified protocol 1 or 2, and have only recently ratified protocol 3, where the rest of the civilized world has ratified them.

So any discussion about the Geneva Convention has to clarify whether the discussion is about the Geneva Convention the US uses or the Geneva Convention the majority of the rest of the world uses.

In any case, my position is clear: I do not approve of my country holding political prisoners in concentration camps. It saddens me that the country I have served all my adult life (and continue to serve) would even consider this, no less do it.

Just an old military guy's worthless opinion.

[Tchocky]

Ugh. The mess of Guantanamo sometimes seems to be happening in a parallel dimension. I guess the choice of location has something to do with this.

The situation is as close to no-win as makes no difference. You round up guilty and innocent alike, let's say 100 guilty and 100 innocent. Tie them up, torture them, leave them in a legal black hole for who knows how long. You now have 200 radicalised fighters holding grudges. "vital part of the war on terror" indeed, we just haven't specified which side it operates for.

The ones you have evidence against, try them in proper courts.

The ones with no evidence, but only suspicion etc? Damned if I know what to do.

Keeping internment camps running indefinitely can't be the answer.

Keeping internment camps open just because "there's no law that specifically says we can't" is completely the wrong answer.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by August

Or,... Obama has access to the same classified reports which have managed to convince him that it really is a bad idea to let those people go free.

Great point.Barry ran his mouth during the campaign about Gitmo etc then during his transition he was given a dose of reality as far as terrorism and the wars go, because he became privy to intel only POTUS and his closest people are, which showed him the reality.I think as a symbolic move he vowed to shut Gitmo down and worry about later, figuring his popularity would cover him but it has not.Reality is, these people belong there and Gitmo is a vital part of the war on terror, he knows this now, end of story.