First sim?

[frinik]

Sorry Scotty to contradict you but PE has ballistic flight time incorporated for quite some time now thanks to the work of BritAldo44.Moreover in almost every aspect PE is a much better sim than Panzer Commander.The proof is that after 12 years it´s got a very active modding community , it´s own forum and every aspect of the game has been improved.Not tomention dozens of new maps, missions and scenarios. On the other hand who plays Panzer Commander nowadays????I haven´t heard anybody in the last 5 years.I have played both and it´s not contest.

But I assume you would want to aply the latest so PE would be off your list.

Otherwise in terms of modern tank sims only T72 Balkans on Fire-Iron Warriors is cheap but with only the T34, T55 and T62 playable and very small scale missions it ain´t very satisfying.

[Scotty]

Originally Posted by frinik

Sorry Scotty to contradict you but PE has ballistic flight time incorporated for quite some time now thanks to the work of BritAldo44.Moreover in almost every aspect PE is a much better sim than Panzer Commander.The proof is that after 12 years it´s got a very active modding community , it´s own forum and every aspect of the game has been improved.Not tomention dozens of new maps, missions and scenarios. On the other hand who plays Panzer Commander nowadays????I haven´t heard anybody in the last 5 years.I have played both and it´s not contest.

But I assume you would want to aply the latest so PE would be off your list.

Otherwise in terms of modern tank sims only T72 Balkans on Fire-Iron Warriors is cheap but with only the T34, T55 and T62 playable and very small scale missions it ain´t very satisfying.

Well that shows ya how out of touch I am then, I have not played PE in a good 6-7 years or maybe more... the ballistics part is what turned me off the most... I still have that old red box up in attic heck I may dust it off just for fun... Yet with SF1942, it is maybe too late..

Thank you for giving me this info, and thus so I will at least not give outdated info to would be tank simmers.

Yeah, no one plays PzC anymore for sure. it was surpassed a year after it came out 1998 by PE in 1999.. I remember it well..

have a good one

[33lima]

yeah the first video link I posted shows Panzer Elite gunnery with time of flight added, he's just firing at open countryside but at least you can see the tracer trajectory.

PzC I quite liked too but the lack of tracers spoiled its gunnery for me, even vanilla PE's instantaneous white puff trails looked better. Didn't mind PzC's lack of infantry much but the fact that the ONLY other kinds of troops in the game were AT guns in silly bunkers, was a big minus too. Plus many of the tank 3d models were poor - Sherman 76s and Fireflies were just 75mm turrets with long barrels, that sort of thing. PE even out of the box had so much more and was a lot more realistic in nearly every respect.

Functionally, Panzer Elite in its current state is still one of the very best tank sims you can play, just as modded Red Baron 3d and EAW are still some of the best combat flight sims available, such are their basic strengths, notwithstanding superior graphics, AI, flight models or whatever.

[Scotty]

Originally Posted by 33lima

yeah the first video link I posted shows Panzer Elite gunnery with time of flight added, he's just firing at open countryside but at least you can see the tracer trajectory.

PzC I quite liked too but the lack of tracers spoiled its gunnery for me, even vanilla PE's instantaneous white puff trails looked better. Didn't mind PzC's lack of infantry much but the fact that the ONLY other kinds of troops in the game were AT guns in silly bunkers, was a big minus too. Plus many of the tank 3d models were poor - Sherman 76s and Fireflies were just 75mm turrets with long barrels, that sort of thing. PE even out of the box had so much more and was a lot more realistic in nearly every respect.

Functionally, Panzer Elite in its current state is still one of the very best tank sims you can play, just as modded Red Baron 3d and EAW are still some of the best combat flight sims available, such are their basic strengths, notwithstanding superior graphics, AI, flight models or whatever.

I would not call PE out of the box better.. the gunnery was more fake than any arcade game.. I mean instant flight time brought me away from it... I like the challnge to have to lead off on something that is 700 meters away... kind of like REAL life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not point at it, adjust for spin and CLICK=DEAD instantly..
Heck, Battlezone of 1980 by Atari was even more realistic.. you did have flight time (slow, but it had it) in it.

The infantry if you want to call it that.. looked like cardboard figures moving around the battlefield.. I mean the enemy in Wolfenstein 3D of 1991 looked much more real.. almost made a whole decade earlier.

So I would not agree with you about "out of the box" PE!

I reinstalled PE some years later 2003-2005, but never seen a flight time mod then, I eventually gave up. Also Panzer Commander would not run on a Barton core CPU of the time later I figured out a CPU slow down utility helped big time.. The blocky forrests were hard to get used to.

As far as Panzer Elite being the most realistic tank sim NOW??? From the mods you guys tell me, you may be right..

Sometimes out of the box sims are worse than others, but modded, the one that was lesser, ended up the best.
Seems PE has come a long way.. like I said, thanks for enlighten me on this.
maybe it should Be Steel Fury Kharkov 1942 vs Panzer Elite (and not T34-vs-Tiger)
----------------------

Red Baron 3D and EAW, used to play those A LOT..even online some.. what has happened with them in the past 6-7 years.?? how are they with mods vs say Il-2 1946 with mods?

later

[Skybird]

Panzer Elite was released in 1999. Already the first Steel Beasts ten years ago was superior to it. I know PE, I still have the CD somewhere, and back then, eleven years ago, it was one of the top titles of the tank genre ever released. But it is not competitive today anymore. Let's not confuse newbies to the tank genre with titles which are hopelessly outdated nowadays. Else we end up recommending even Conqueror ( ) for the Acorn Archimedes and Amiga. Not that Conqueror was not a superb game - for 1988.

I still remember the terrible, harsh shaking of the perspective when looking out of the turret with the tank moving. It made you almost seasick.

[frinik]

I agree with you Skbird PE was the best tank sim GAME of its time and while a classic it´s still a charming old lady trying hard to keep up with young chicks.

SB is the classic of tank SIMs and will probably remain for the years to come.

I would not recommend PE to somebody new to tanksims unless you really want to feel like it is to play an oldie a bit like those driving vintage cars

SB I would only recommend if you are really interested in becoming a hard core, serious tank simmer to justify the investment in time and money otherwise I say SF because its affordable and while imperfect the best, up-to-date WWII tank sim GAME currently available.

[33lima]

Originally Posted by Scotty

I would not call PE out of the box better.. the gunnery was more fake than any arcade game.. I mean instant flight time brought me away from it... I like the challnge to have to lead off on something that is 700 meters away... kind of like REAL life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not point at it, adjust for spin and CLICK=DEAD instantly..
Heck, Battlezone of 1980 by Atari was even more realistic.. you did have flight time (slow, but it had it) in it.

The infantry if you want to call it that.. looked like cardboard figures moving around the battlefield.. I mean the enemy in Wolfenstein 3D of 1991 looked much more real.. almost made a whole decade earlier.

So I would not agree with you about "out of the box" PE!

I reinstalled PE some years later 2003-2005, but never seen a flight time mod then, I eventually gave up. Also Panzer Commander would not run on a Barton core CPU of the time later I figured out a CPU slow down utility helped big time.. The blocky forrests were hard to get used to.

As far as Panzer Elite being the most realistic tank sim NOW??? From the mods you guys tell me, you may be right..

Sometimes out of the box sims are worse than others, but modded, the one that was lesser, ended up the best.
Seems PE has come a long way.. like I said, thanks for enlighten me on this.
maybe it should Be Steel Fury Kharkov 1942 vs Panzer Elite (and not T34-vs-Tiger)
----------------------

Red Baron 3D and EAW, used to play those A LOT..even online some.. what has happened with them in the past 6-7 years.?? how are they with mods vs say Il-2 1946 with mods?

later

RB3d with either the Western Front, Blue Max, Hell's Angels or other mods is still one of the best. Graphics even modded are primitive by current standards, the planes still swirl about the sky a bit, friendlies 'ghost" thru each other, and the AI has repetitive routines and still can't kill you if you fly at ground level, but even so, the range of flyables is supreme, the feeling that you're really operating in a living battlefront with all kinds of flights going about their business is as utterly immersive as ever it was, and the nice little touches like the escape and medal award videos are as present as they are absent in more modern sims where Eye Candy is King.

Much the same with EAW.

Il2 I have played a lot [offline, not into MP] in all its successive variants and I still hate its improved but still small-scale and utterly soul-less campaigns, its truly horrible external engine sounds and its frustratingly game-killer 'uber' AI gunners. Rowan's BoB [1 or 2] and Microprose's B17 Mighty Eighth I still rate as much the best pre-jet-age combat flight sims you can play today - now, those ARE sims, whose less serious shortcomings you can more readily forgive. Modded CFS2 maybe next, then modded EAW or modded RB3d, then modded CFS3. CFS3/OFF [WW1] looks like a really good bet, I helped Winding Man with some of the early research for that but my always-budget hardware didn't cope well with the freeware version and while my kit is slightly less budget nowadays, I haven't invested in the payware OFF yet. The Third Wire stuff like First Eagles and WoV is fun for a blast now and then but they all have soul-less, un-immersive campaigns [Yankee Air Pirates might be an improvement?] and even the WW1 planes explode like arcade targets. Rise of Flight looks good but the substance seems rather limited - after RB3d levels of flyables, a Camel, D7 and SPAD (and Dr1 at extra cost] are really big step in the wrong direction, no way compensating for the eye candy.

I would not write off PE, even without time of flight - which it now has - and even in comparison with current tanksims. The PE tanks still tend to jerk about like they are made of cardboard on uneven terrain and the graphics are inferior even modded but good graphics do not a good sim make, nor does a lack of the latest eye candy make a bad one. PE still has many of the other elements that DO make a good [tank] sim. Elements that more modern games do less well. In SF42, the gunner sight view jerks not much better than PE's when you move, much as you'd expect if you were staring down a magnified sight in an unstabilised mount in a vehicle with basic suspension moving cross-country.

For that matter, there is much more to tanksims than gunnery, popular tho that is. I prefer to play as TC and troop/platoon commander and if the sim lets you do that effectively, then that's a big plus. PE and SB are two of the few sims that reasonably realistically simulate the TC and troop commander roles. I loved M1TP2 but you really HAD to play as from the gunner role [when you weren't at the Ivis screen 'watching little red and blue dots shoot pixels at one another' as one reviewer put it, and trying to stop the horrible uber artillery killing your light forces while killing the enemy's with yours]. SF42 seems to work best that way too, played as gunner but with the magical ability to give TC orders to your driver - fun but not so good as a simulation. I have yet to force myself to play SF42 from the TC position alone, maybe it is actually quite good at doing that, but the lack of simulated radio traffic apart from the canned and repetitive chatter, and the reliance on dropping out of the 3d world to the 2d map to exercise control of your troop/platoon, seem to make SF42, despite the fact that's the role it casts you in, a much inferior simulator to PE of the platoon/troop commander role. In that role, SF42 is much better than TvT, but PE is much, much better than either.

Original SB was best in every technical respect - at least when they finally modelled the 'moving reticle' - but the canned missions and lack of most of the features that made RB3D, EAW, F4, Mig Alley, BoB or B17-2 great sims, limited its appeal for me, and I daresay SB Pro PE would be the same. The empahsis on max fidelity with the M1 and Leo and the consequent certainty you were never gonna get even a basic playable Chieftain, Centurion or T72, to me was devotion taken to too much an extreme - I'm more of a survey sim person I guess, variety the spice of life and all that. Anyway, like great graphics, technical perfection isn't everything. The tanksim you chose depends on what you value most. For me, it's SF42 first, PE a very close second, SB third. TvT [which I also have] is so very limited as to be of similarly limited value even to a big Tiger fan like me, with the Zeewolf mod a WiP. T72 BoF/IW I also have but while I like T72s like TvT it's really rather severely limited as a tanksim - you just play your own tank in canned missions, no radio no comand and control, no nuthin'. Others will differ.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by 33lima

Original SB was best in every technical respect - at least when they finally modelled the 'moving reticle' - but the canned missions and lack of most of the features that made RB3D, EAW, F4, Mig Alley, BoB or B17-2 great sims, limited its appeal for me, and I daresay SB Pro PE would be the same. The empahsis on max fidelity with the M1 and Leo and the consequent certainty you were never gonna get even a basic playable Chieftain, Centurion or T72,

to me was devotion taken to too much an extreme.

First, despite the obvious lack of a dynamic campaign, but having a fantastic mission editor (which allows much better designing of enemy tactics and AI than a dynamic campaign will ever be capable to produce), what are the obvious lacking features of the sims you listed and that SBP-PE is missing? Just curious what you mean.

Second, have you ever taken the time to check the number of playable vehicles and tanks in SBP-PE? Do you know that all other vehicles, including the Chally, four versions of the T-72, and several tanks now from the 50s and 60s, can be controlled at least from the outside view? And that some of them, namely the T72, are on the to do-list to be added interior playability?

Originally Posted by SBP resource thread

Vehicles in bold and italic are crewable. not all crewables have full 3D interior, those of which I am sure by memory that they have, have an "*" attached. "(*)" means a 3D interior with reduced functionality.

Since version 2.538, SBP simulates the Lemur RWS, coming with a fully modelled control desk for the player, featuring a cal .50 or a 40mm grendade launcher. The six vehicles allowing to be optionally equipped with this RWS have " (Lemur) " in brackets attached to their listing.

SBP knows crewable vehicles, and non-crewables. Both red and blue forces can be made up of both types, and Russian and Western vehicles can be combined in the same force. Non-crewables however can only be controlled via the map-commands, or by outsideview without the option to jump to the stations - you can manually remote-drive them, but for the most all aiming and shooting is done automatically. Once the players leaves them alone again, AI takes over full control again.


MBTs:
=====
Leopard 1A5DK
Leopard-AS1
Leopard-2A4
Leopard-2A5DK*
Leopardo-2E* (a Leo-2A6 for Spain)
Strv-122* (Leo-2A5 for Sweden)
M-60A3
M1 with 105mm L7 gun(*)
M1A1 (HA)(*)
M1A2 SEP
Challenger II
T-55
T-62
T-72M1
T-72B
T-72M4CZ
T-80U


IFVs/APCs
=======
ASLAV-25
ASLAV-PC (Lemur)
BMD-2
BMP-1
BMP-2
BTR-80
Bushmaster(*) (Lemur)
CV90/35DK*
CV90/40-B*
CV90/40-C*
LAV-25
M-113AS4
M-113G3 (Lemur)
M2A2(*)
M3A2(*)
Marder 1A3
MT-LB
Pizarro*
Piranha-IIIC* (Lemur)
VEC
YPR-765


trucks
======
HEMTT transport
HEMTT fuel
M-1025 HMMWV
MAN SX45 transport (Lemur)
MAN SX45 fuel (Lemur)
MB-240 GD
MB-240 GD XO/CO
Ural 4320 transport (now with dismountable troops)
Ural 4320 fuel


others
=====
ASLAV-CS
ASLAV-A
Biber
BRDM-2
BRDM-2AT
Centauro*
Eagle IV (Lemur)
M-981 FISTV
FOV90* (CV-90 FO)
Jaguar 1A3
M-113/FO
M-113 FO "Viking"
M-113A1
M-113FIST
M-113A3 Engineers
M-113A3 MICLIC
M-113 Medic
M-113G3 OPMV
M-113 Bergepanzer
M-113A3 TOW
M-88A1 MRV
M-901 ITV
M-966 HMMWV
MT-55
MT-LB FO
2S6 Tunguska AA
UAV unmanned aerial vehicle
UGV unmanned ground vehicle
1.2t technical truck HMG
1.2t technical truck RCL
YPR-765 PRAT
Wiesel TOW
4 versions of civilian cars

Some of these tanks and IFVs are modelled quite completely in the handling of the fire control procedures. Some have complex manuals just for the one vehicle. The realism of ballistics, the realism of the sights and sensors, and the range of available projectiles per gun model and operator, are very huge.

Not a survey sim...? I tend to think of SBPPE as the Falcon 4 of tank sims.

Third, on the extreme devotion, you know that eSim is no gaming company, and that the sales to private customers make much less than 10% of their income (their own info), and that the sim is in the state it is in because their real paying customers - the military - ordered it that way and demanded it to have these and no other contents? Extreme devotion for the M1 and Leo has little to do with it. It's just that their important customers wanted these. And they modelled them - as competently as they try to model all other vehicles as well. You can see that there are polenty of vehciles with full interiors and fulöl playability so that you can set up full battle without any Leopards and Abrams involved.



I do not want to missionise or convert you, but somehow I think that maybe you just do not know SBP-PE well enough.

[Kyth]

Originally Posted by 33lima

SF42, despite the fact that's the role it casts you in, a much inferior simulator to PE of the platoon/troop commander role. In that role, SF42 is much better than TvT, but PE is much, much better than either.

Yes, I have to agree with you about that - the high point for me in playing PE (the unmodded version) was the platoon management... assigning tanks based on availability, limited ammunition supplies, the increasing expertise in the crew members when they survive...

As for the game itself, I recall that the mission design could be somewhat, shall we say, "crappy". One mission in particular (in North Africa) involved a nasty artillery barrage guaranteed to destroy (not disable) your entire tank platoon. Seems it was triggered off by driving your tank over a particular spot on the map... After a few tries, I wised up enough to make a detour, not a very large one, off the road, to continue... and voila, Mission accomplished...

There was a later 'Mission Impossible' in Normandy which literally stopped my campaign in its tracks. Just not possible to survive that one
PE disappeared off my HD some time after that...

[frinik]

OK to sum up:

1) Best, no contest, tank sim available SB.Downside expensive to purchase and not recommended unless you plan on playing it seriously and dedicate yourself to it for years to come.

2) Best WWII title currently available SF.Downside no MP, and AI is iconsistent.

3) Tvst( stock game) not recommended buggy, scripted and even MP is shaky.

4)TvsT Kursk ZeeWolf mod. Much improved but expensive and work in progress

5) PE, OK for beginners with lots of mods but dated in every aspect and AI is primitive.

6) T72 BoF or Iron Warriors(depends where you buy it).Cheap and not too difficult but limited replay, dated graphics and not very immersive.

That's it!

Otherwise you hava other games but they're either first shooters ARMA and ARMA II, Red Orchestra or rts of the Achtung Panzer Kharkov 1943 type, Men of War, Soldiers Heroes of WWII, Codename Panzers , Theatre of War etc