O/T National Service

[August]

Originally Posted by Kapitain

there not that weak in fact i rekon if they took france on germany would win like most germany would strangle france like they tried to do with us in WW1 and 2 they got the submarines for it so they can effectively do it.


as for nation service

russia maintains it too you must do 2 years millatery service in any force while between the ages of 18 and 30 (think age has changed again)

Maybe, but i doubt we'll live to see German and Frenchmen shooting at each other again.

BTW I have nothing against the concept of a national service. The way i look at it, Germany has the right idea in offering a choice between military and social service.

While unwilling draftees rarely make good soldiers, I think a year or so of service to ones nation can be a good character building experience for a nations young adults. One tends to care more about something one has helped to defend or maintain. It's the difference between earning something and having it handed to you.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Maybe Germans just have learned their lessons - and for that reason question the shallow motives of questionable honours and theatralic speeches and hidden soceities within societies that hide solid economical motives in other nations that have fallen victim to see military action as a solution to almost everything. And about the time between Versailles treaty and 1939 a lot can be said that goes slightly beyond just some inner characteristic of German society. It's the same society without whose rich cultural treasury of writing, philosophy, music and arts the world today and Western civilization would not be what it is. German history did not start with Hitler.

Nor did it end with Hitler, but Germany is just now emerging from it's post war period of national "parole". The ability of its people to resist the lure of thinking itself superior to others remains to be tested.

As for your views on other nations, mine in particular, please understand that i find them to be both inaccurate and condescendingly insulting, and suggestive of the superiority complex i have mentioned.

Given my extensive experience with Germans and having lived in Germany for a period of time, I understand they are just one mans rather twisted view of the world, which is sad in a way, because others less familiar with your people may think it's more than that.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Maybe Germans just have learned their lessons - and for that reason question the shallow motives of questionable honours and theatralic speeches and hidden soceities within societies that hide solid economical motives in other nations that have fallen victim to see military action as a solution to almost everything.

Aha! The Germans learned their own lesson and now they think they should lecture "other nations that have fallen victim" about "questionable honours and theatrical speeches" and so on?
I see things slightly different. The Germans made a big mistake in the Hitler-era (to put it mildly). They were taught a stiff lesson by the Allies and eventually learned from it. Now they should behave (most do), be grateful for having gotten a new chance (most are) and display extreme modesty in criticising their former teachers (most do).

Originally Posted by Skybird

And about the time between Versailles treaty and 1939 a lot can be said that goes slightly beyond just some inner characteristic of German society. It's the same society without whose rich cultural treasury of writing, philosophy, music and arts the world today and Western civilization would not be what it is. German history did not start with Hitler.

You're right on this.
You probably just couldn't resist justifying Anti Americanism in your posting. At least I bet you were not aiming at North Korea, Cuba or Burma...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Aha! The Germans learned their own lesson and now they think they should lecture "other nations that have fallen victim" about "questionable honours and theatrical speeches" and so on?
I see things slightly different. The Germans made a big mistake in the Hitler-era (to put it mildly). They were taught a stiff lesson by the Allies and eventually learned from it. Now they should behave (most do), be grateful for having gotten a new chance (most are) and display extreme modesty in criticising their former teachers (most do).

You're right on this.
You probably just couldn't resist justifying Anti Americanism in your posting. At least I bet you were not aiming at North Korea, Cuba or Burma...

Aha! Abraham again!
No, you expect us to be eternally thankful for the deeds of a generation that for the most already is no more. we owe it to the deeds of that genenration that we remind their offsprings that they are about to go as wrong as our ancestors did back then. That is the biggest and most precious gift that we can give to them. Joining the league of stupid ones that ignore 6 decades having passed by and changed the victor's country significantly would mean that we haven't learned from our history at all, and that we repeat the same mistakes. By that we proove to be friends. We reject to be subordinate receivers of commands of a small American elite of the rich and the powerful, or submissive vasalls, and we must not accept the fulfillment of economical egoism of others beeing the goal determening our political acting - we have our own egoist economy to keep under control.

And I talk of public opinion here, not of what politicians over here say and do, they are just the usual brunch of selfish and opportunistic a..holes.

Telling a friend that he is about to fall into a deep black hole by fault is better for him than letting hom fall and then blindly jump after him. trying to prevent a friend from doing wrong is the better friendship than join him in his folly.

I am anti-American-policy, and sometimes anti-American-attitude if it presents itself as beeing the to-be-enforced-solution of the world's problems. I am not anti-American in general. But I am sure you will keep on ignoring this difference.

[Abraham]

Hoi Sky, ja, it's me again!

I don't care about "eternal" gratitude, but being blatantly Anti American and in the proces constantly generalising a whole (and pretty divers) nation is something different. But perhaps I shouldn't read too much in that... You'll have your reasons...

I understand you have the best of intentions with the countries you consider your friends. Still I would prefer you speak for yourself and not for the German people as a whole when you say

Originally Posted by Skybird

Telling a friend that he is about to fall into a deep black hole by fault is better for him than letting hom fall and then blindly jump after him. trying to prevent a friend from doing wrong is the better friendship than join him in his folly.

First of all, you can't speak for the German people and with your opinion you should strictly speak for yourself.
Second, don't you think it is slightly haugthy for the German people to warn other nations that they are about to fall in deep dark pits.
Lastly, when you warn your friends - with the best of intentions - on behalf of the German people some might not be too receptive and when you try to prevent them on behalf of the German people those countries might not want to be your friends anymore.

As for these beautifull words

Originally Posted by Skybird

No, you expect us to be eternally thankful for the deeds of a generation that for the most already is no more. we owe it to the deeds of that genenration that we remind their offsprings that they are about to go as wrong as our ancestors did back then. That is the biggest and most precious gift that we can give to them.

how come I always get itchy when people justify their own positions by claiming it to be an obligation they owe to a dead son or a gone generation...
:hmm:
In this case your "gift" is a warning to others that they are about to go as wrong as the Nazi's.
I think that in general both the generation of Allies who fought against Nazism and their offspring would be quite happy if the you kept your biggest and most precious gift for yourself.
I even think that's what you really owe to them.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Abraham

the proces constantly generalising a whole (and pretty divers) nation

I time and again illustrated what kinds of differences I make, and that I do not mismatch individuals, private pöersons, and national policy. I may be agisnt the egenral püolicy, but I judge the indual I talk to as an indual, evryone that I meet. I said something liek that in the above ppst of mine, and you ignore it. Accusin me of beeing egnerally anti-America is the easiest and most tempting way to discredit me, so that one must not deal with what I say. You will not stop doing that, and you are not the only one doing it. It's just that you do not like critizism of the US, for whatever personal motives you have, to silence that critizism every means is okay for you. Okay, so call me anti-Aemrican. Get over it.

hold a whole people responsible for I understand you have the best of intentions with the countries you consider your friends. Still I would prefer to speak for yourself and not for the German people as a whole when you say

First of all, you can't speak for the German people and with your opinion you should strictly speak for yourself.

since you are not really a master of limiting your own opinion to your subjective view, but often claiming that general reason is on your side and so it is impossible to opoose your views withiout rightfully beeing labelled an unreasonable, you shouldn'T start to morally lecture like that. I followed your exchange with Brad in the Liberty-thread. It was so revealing again, but not new.

and more, what I said is the majority' opinion over here, that's why Schroeder was able to make a score by his opposition to Iraq during last elections. the polls vary a bit with years going by, but there always was a very substantial majority beeing against the american hegemonial strategy in general, and Iraq in special.Which also is true for so many old-europeans countries, even if their governements sometimes decided that the people's opinions count nothing.

Second, don't you think it is slightly haugthy for the German people to warn other nations that they are to fall in deep dark pits.

Lastly, when you warn your friends - with the best of intentions - on behalf of the German people some might not be too receptive and when you try to prevent them on behalf of the German people those countries might not want to be your friends anymore.

Okay, so be it, the reputation of the current US is such that it is no honour to be seen as a close ally of them. Cooperation where it is needed would be enough, imo, as far as politics is concerned, and private relations between americans and Germans wopuldn'T be affected by that at all. Former american friends of mine DId know of my opnions, sometimes they understood it, sometimes not, this did not shadow our private realtions - it were people I was dealing with, no politicians. - Do we get bombed and invaded now? We are not responsible if reaosnable warnings in advance get cleaned off the table. Their responsebility, their costs. Iraqis' suffering. I have separated from temporary feinds during my life. Why should it be difefrent with nations? I am deeply convicned there is no such thing as friendship between nations. Only temporary congruency of egoism. Were interests meet, there will be cooperation, the cooperation between Germany and Amwrica on industrial, intelligence and scientifc levels remained almost untouched in their close ties and qualities, btw. Diplomatic sublevels functioned very well and on personal basis as always. The same is true for most interractions between America and - France. Some months ago I linked a portry of the very massive aid the French were giving the Us intel community, dfespite the hostile rethorics between Bush and Chirac. Many operations of the americans in their counter-operations on terorr wouldnT have been possible without assistance by the superb French secret service.

these beautifull words

how come I always get itchy when people justify their own positions by claiming it to be an obligation they owe to a dead son or a gone generation...
:hmm:
In this case your "gift" is a warning to others that they are about to go as wrong as the Nazi's.

No, a warning that Iraq qopuld not work, and why. And more generally, that the military is receiving far too much attention and acceptance in American society, and that it's close ties with private industry comes at the danger of forming hidden elites whose private profit interests are not necessarily in the interests of the people. It's a warning on a trend towards militarism, and collectivism, and a new form of feudalism. These symptoms were explpoited by Hitler to secure hos own power, at least in so far you are right.

I think that in general both the generation of Allies who fought against Nazism and their offspring would be quite happy if the you kept your biggest and most precious gift for yourself.
I even think that's what you really owe to them.

Hardly. Again, you ignore the massive changes the last sixty years have brought to america. the moral authority it had back then it has corrupted all by itself. Those who corrupted it we owe nothing. It's not so much the people that prefer to believe it still is as it was a hundred years ago, but those liars and ursupators that make them believe that way.

[Kapitan]

skybird is there a law or something that stops you writing your point in a paragraph ?

nah makes for a good read and you explain well

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Kapitain

skybird is there a law or something that stops you writing your point in a paragraph ?

It's complex stuff, often, and I try to avoid unjustified simplifications. But to some degree it is the foreign language. I can understand English very well, but I cannot speak it myself so fluidly than many others. This makes me writing overly complicated phrases and sentence structures at times. No excuse, but an explanation.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

As for your views on other nations, mine in particular, please understand that i find them to be both inaccurate and condescendingly insulting, and suggestive of the superiority complex i have mentioned.

Hm, is it Germans or Americans trying to convince other foreign people and cultures that they have to copy their way of living, the understanding of what democracy truly is, and their cultural value system? How many wars america has started since end of WWII, although the US were not directly threatend, and how many has Germany started in that time? Is america or Germany blocking even minimal ecological protection protocols that wpould need adjustements of the industry? Who tries to prevent the court in La Hague, and why, Germany or America? Is it Germany that operates dozens and hundreds of military bases around the globe, ensuring global strike capability, or was it America? Had the recent UN general assembly been ruined by over 750 demands for substantial changes to the original plan - by America, or by Germany? I know, you are tempted to give plenty of reasonable arguments why your country's policy is ,like it is. But must the rest of the world necessarily agree with that self-defintion of yours? Must we all be indirectly American, seen that way, then?

I will not withdraw my critizism on political issues simply because someone feels offended by a disagreeing opinion or view. With that method all critizism there is could be silenced immediately, and this I do not accept. I take care not make it sound personal, and turn it into personal things, as long as I feel the other side is answering that favour in the same way. In Germany people are not so easily personally offended when ill-goings in German politics are critizised, at least I know none like that. We also don't declare our leaders holy, untouchable saints, there was one such leader, and that one was enough. Why it is so easy to personally offend Americans if one is adressing political aspects of their country i do not understand. We non-americans necessarily must have a bigger interest in events concerning your country, than you have for ours, for we get mujtliple times as much affected by effects caused by the US, as the other way around. If it is this or that foreign minstre in Germany is of minor importance for you, at best, but for us it makes a very big difference if it is a more left or a more right administration in the WH. But if that sensibility towards critizism, understood as something like countercontrol, should be the reason why critzism of politics should no longer be allowed for reasons of politeness, than I reject that and prefer to be regarded as unpolite, then. Nice sideeffect is that when I say something that sounds friendly in your ears you can assume that i really mean it and that it is not just shallow politeness on the surface. I often enough payed tribute to your nation'S constitutional values, for example, and I voiced many critizism of the present political conditions in convinced defense of this consitution, for I see a wide gap between what it is and what it should be. My respect for the historic document you can take as serious, and solid, for that reason. This does not mean that I must conclude that it is still the inner basis of the political shaping of your nation in the present, since let's say mid-20th century. you think it is, I think it is not. It simple is this issue for me, not more, not less. The question of if it is polite to question your opinion in this regard is not important. If you critizese the welfare system in Germany, for example, and give your reasons, I try to see it through your eyes, separate belief from information, and then eventually adress what I think is not correct in your thinking about us, and explain why it is how it is. As long as you don'T use word tricks, rethorics, rude manners to simply bully us out of the match i don't feel offended at all. There is enough in Germany, in personell as well as in institutions, laws, structures, you could hack away at if you are interested and where I even would lend you the axe all for free. Just keep politics and pesonal things separate. If you think I am just about attacking american politcs, then you are wrong. I question modern pllitics on a global scale. It's just that america often is in the cneter of debates here, and that it ia a more improtnat player than for example the politics of Luxembourg.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Kapitain

skybird is there a law or something that stops you writing your point in a paragraph ?

nah makes for a good read and you explain well

Skybird's brevity of prose is probably lost in the same location as your shift and period keys. So, how's your German?

[Kapitan]

needs buffing up but i can speak a bit and french and russian and english how about you ?

[Skybird]

Da. Njet. Nastrowje. Doswidanja Rodina. Anything else I need in order to survive in Moscow?

[August]

Skybird i don't really care whether you withdraw your criticism or not, just don't expect anyone to believe anything you say.

I think you feel a compulsion to badmouth other nations as a way to mitigate by comparison your own nations history. "We're not so bad, just look at what your country did" really sums up the normal tone of your posts. America is just a convenient target for you since our own open self critique provides you with ready supply of ammunition.

[Kapitan]

skybird what can i say apart from NO sorry theres no J

NYET and DASVEDANYE

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Skybird i don't really care whether you withdraw your criticism or not, just don't expect anyone to believe anything you say.

I think you feel a compulsion to badmouth other nations as a way to mitigate by comparison your own nations history. "We're not so bad, just look at what your country did" really sums up the normal tone of your posts. America is just a convenient target for you since our own open self critique provides you with ready supply of ammunition.

You are basing on false assumption here: maybe because you really cannot imagine other people - me in this case - having far less nationalistic sentiments for their homecountries as you maybe have for yours. I'm neither especially patriotic, nor nationalistic. I'm simply not made for that kind emotions. I just don't like foul Nazi-cliches beeing used on us, that's as if I would say all americans are KuKluxKlan, all americans are Bush-loaylist, all amercians are this, or that. Or whatveer nationality you want to talk about. All Polish steal. All Russians drink. All Brtish are snobs. All french are softies. Etc.etc. Although you see that different - I don't think I use cliches on your people. I made observations that have formed my perception of the policy of your nation. Because I do not speak to much about your people, but politics. And when I target politics, I do not care if they are German or American or Europeans, they are either solid and well, or they aint. That at times one is aksing why this or that politician or policy receives support or is rejected by a people is only legitimate.