DW selling techniques a joke ?

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Anyone else, or could we leave it to that now...? Almost the whole second page of this thread has been unnecessary.

And yet, you continue to respond. Perhaps you are seeking the final word. It does not become you, Skybird, regardless of the topic of the moment. If the discussion has passed into the realm of futility, why continue the discussion?

[timmyg00]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Ask him. He referred to SC's developement/patching not beeing a bed of roses, as if anyone had said something different. Noone had.

Fine, I missed that. My mistake.

Originally Posted by Skybird

You guys are really trying hard to make what I said look queer. But one can see that often: that a player likes something, and now he is pressing hard that others have to like it, too, and see it his way.

What you said, and keep saying and saying and saying, IS queer. This is the main point that we "anti-Skybird" (or perhaps more correctly put, "pro-common-sense") types are trying to get across, and that you continually refuse to address: Anything you have to say about Dangerous Waters, or about Sonalysts with regard to DW, is based solely on hearsay. In a courtroom (in many countries, at least), hearsay is not admissible as testimony, and in the court of public opinion, i.e. here, the jury, i.e. the rest of us, look upon your opinions with a jaundiced eye and, as I believe I have said before, a fist-sized grain of salt. And nobody here is pressing anyone else to like anything, so stop playing the victim and acting as if we're a bunch of numb-skulled DW fascists who want you to "conform or die". We're just pointing out a glaring incongruity in the fabric of your opinion.

Originally Posted by Skybird

But what makes skybird still beeing hesitant to buy NOW nevertheless may shed some light on one of the reasons, a reason that obviously is shared by many others.

Oh yes, dozens... hundreds maybe... they're just crawling out of the woodwork like bugs...

Originally Posted by Skybird

I gave my reasons for that in two threads earlier, some weeks and months ago, and touched them shortly here again.

No doubt you will continue re-explain your reasons ad nauseam, anytime you see the opportunity. Thanks, we appreciate that. We understand. Now read this carefully - You're completely entitled to your reasons and to expound on them here; nobody would deny that. We knew about your reasons before, we know about them now, and we're not likely to forget... is that enough to convince you that we don't need to hear them again, or will you find some other clever way to insinuate them into another thread?

Originally Posted by Skybird

I wonder why I do not read printed PC-mags anymore - maybe because the reviews there are also very tame and never ask critical questions, showing the light, but only rarely the shadow.

Or is it that feedback of every player/owner who reported about some small or not so small things in DW in past month necessarily must have been wrong - wrong because not beeing totally enthusiastic about it ?

Stop treating us like we're idiots just because we enjoy the game in its current state. Nobody here believes that the sim is perfect, and we'll all acknowledge that it has its flaws that we'd like to see fixed. However, if you want to think you've cornered the market on critical thinking around here, go right ahead. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Originally Posted by Skybird

I HAVE NOT BASHED SA in this thread

Right. Perhaps "bashing" is too harsh a word. Certainly the word "criticism" could be applied, if the veiled little jabs you take at "SA" are not to be considered "bashing".

Here's what I took issue with that prompted me to respond in the first place:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Any more bright comments...?

Uncalled for.

Originally Posted by Skybird

maybe you should read more carefully before attcking people for something that noone said, or indicated.

Whom did he attack??

Originally Posted by Skybird

Cool down. Tone here was pretty constructive and sober, until you fired your comment.

Ah, as if HE was the one who stirred things up

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Yes, I have not purchased DW. However, I did try the demo, read reviews, read Nottefallmappe, and follow the BFC and Subsim DW forums. So, I would not consider myself ignorant of DW's new features and how it compares to SC in the common platforms.

I have to disagree with you there. Many of the features and capabilities of DW have to be experienced to be believed, and to compare with SC. A complete comparison cannot be performed, considering that there are 3 playable platform types that simply don't exist in SC! And since the demo only contains one of them - the simplest one - it can't possibly convey a full sense of the advances this game has over SC. And with regard to reading forums - well, to me, that's hearsay if you don't own the game, and I've already spewed forth with my opinion on hearsay :P

Originally Posted by MarkShot

I see no reason why I cannot or should not participate in this forum. I do my best to maintain my manners being respectful of other members, moderators, and developers.

I think it would be a sad precedent if forum access/participation were to be restricted to "customers only"; not that it could be done, but I think it would do more harm than good to the community, publishers, and developers.

Whoa, slow down! I don't think anyone made any such suggestion!

I'd be happy to let this thread get back on-topic, and I apologize for ranting a bit - but no apologies for the content.

TG

[Sea Demon]

to timmyg00. **applause**

Sea Demon

[Bellman]

We've had a few summer storms here - bin rattling the slates on my new roof.

James T73s gone for a cool beer.

Sea Demon reveals his inclination to 'room' and 'tongue.'
(Disclaimer - these SD terms are jocular and in no way intended to offend - 'Chickens coming home to roost eh ? )

[OneShot]

@TG amen to that ...

Anyway, back on topic ... ok, DW is only available on the net - which of course prevents the regular guy to take note of it and buy it or maybe the occassional grandma to pick it up as a gift for her grandson (who btw. has no interest in it whatsoever) - so what ? Lets face it, this game is a niche game and those who are interested in it, will take the hurdle and buy it by way of BFC no matter what.

As far as publishing goes, I know at least two major PC Gaming Mags in Germany who had reviews on DW (not so bad either), so the average gamer at least knows about it (hopefully) and if it sparks interest then he might even try the demo / buy it.

Sofar SCS hasnt (I believe) put a lot of money into marketing the game, but got some (if not all the bang) for the buck they wanted. Putting the game in shops would have cost a lot more, and probably wouldnt have yielded any better results, most likely the results would have been worse because they need to put more money into this retail-lane then into BFC.

If I remember correctly it was Jamie who explained the whole stuff in another thread quite to my (and most others) satisfaction, so lets not beat this horse anymore and move on to other topics. SCS has decided to follow this way, so stop talking bout that and lets see where this leads ...

Now on a more personal note : DW is a great game and with the exception of the occasional glitch (which mostly is only annoying) I have yet to encounter serious problems stopping me from playing or denying me fun in the game. More to the contrary, right now I would love to play MP games, but cant due to other commitments, but I'm eager to get back to playing once its possible. As far as "bugs" or problems with this (or any game for that matter) go, my opinion is, that only those who actually play the game should comment on them, and not somebody who just reads about them - regardless how long he plays PC games (he hasnt played this one).

Just my 2 cents

[Beer]

As end users we play the game, and we market it as well, our threads or comments are read by potiential buyers.

This game gets a hearty thumbs up from this former P-3 TACCO. There is no other game that a civilian, with any desire to put some time in game (yes it have a steep learning curve...but every review I have read has said this right out of the gate), can learn the real life issues and how too's of airborne ASW for a mere $50, and be able to do it in a multiplayer/multicrew fashion. Couple glitches and game balance issues sure, like no harpoon for the P-3 and a super maverick instead (well it is harpoon like...) sure...its a game, $50 for DW your getting a great simulation that you can use real life tactics and theory to hunt and kill the enemy.

This game is good enough (from the P-3C point of view), that you could get your flight station, TACCO, Acoustic and Non-Acoustic operator in a multicrew online game with voice comms like Teamspeak or RW and practice for upcoming qualifications...I really wish this was availible when I was flying.

Naysayers simply don't have to buy it.

Give SA and their business plan a chance.

Cheers
Beer

[John Channing]

Originally Posted by Skybird

A fine excuse for always buying blindly without asking before. Salesmen must love you! ;) Are you one yourself, maybe? :lol:

As a matter of fact I am (well... currently Sales and Marketing Management) and have been for over 25 years. Do you have a problem with Salespeople?

But, as usual, you seem to spend a little too much time typing and not quit enough reading.

It is one thing to garner the facts from other people and sources and make a decision to participate (or not), but quite another to go through the same exercise, come to your decision, and then seek out every opportunity to inject that decision into every conversation you can. The former is intellegent consumerism. The latter is just trying to attract attention to yourself.

You refer to this place as a Kindergarten. The last time I visited a Kindergarten there were a couple of screaming children, kicking and shouting in an attempt to become the center of attention, and detracting from the enjoyment of the others.

Perhaps your analogy is valid.

JCC

JCC

[MarkShot]

Well, at the risk of voicing an opinion and being single out as a non-customer (don't I get some points for having purchased SC? and I payed full price too!) ...

I do think the game was adequately publicized if the primary customer base are those who previously have some interest in the naval warfare genre. If you were a strategy/hardcore/grognard wargamer or naval enthusiast and regular user of the Internet to follow your hobby, then any number of the main sites for this type of thing had given this game some play.

In terms of impulse buyers at the checkout line, this was a stealth offering. However, it is unlikely that someone with no prior interest other than "cool box art" would really get past the learning curve this game entails. Besides the cost benefit analysis of advertising/sales to such customers, if I was developer, I don't know if I would have wanted to achieve sales without turning the purchasers (impulse sales) into a loyal customer base. It seems Sonalysts is in this for the long haul and perhaps the marketting of the game reflected such a philosophy.

[LuftWolf]

For what it's worth, I believe that it's possible that SCS knew exactly what the state of DW was when they released it through BFC, planning the whole time to go retail when: a sufficient online community had built up loyalty to the brand, the game was "finished." So, while the game is "late beta", why not make some money, get some others to help with the testing (online buyers), and get the community that can later help sell the game in retail, and help the total newbies learn how to play? and get some valuable feedback from the forums along the way?

This is wild speculation of course and could even be taken as being "naughty" on behalf of SCS if it was their plan, so I don't hold too closely to any of this. Even if it were true, I don't care, as I have the game NOW and am thoroughly enjoying it.

However, if that is the case, they may not be in any rush to release the v1.02 patch before the retail version is ready.

Just some jawflapping about an idea that came to me on the crapper...

[Skybird]

John,

I quote a PM that I sent one participant of this thread today. It does not contain personal sensitive data, and so the receiver will not be angry if I made this letter public, I hope, it's also no special letter, but it makes clear what irritates me in this thread so much, and why I stubbornly defend myself against what I regard as unjustified attacks. It just spares me the time to type it all in different phrases again when just paste and copying it. BTW, you said I voice the same opinion "time and again, at every opportunity". As a matter of fact I show up in the DW forum only very rarely, every couple of weeks or so. And I NEVER commented on gameplay of DW, which makes oerfect sense - I do not play it, you know

"Did you note how many different reasons I gave in my first reply that could be imagined as an answer to the topic'S inherent question of why DW does not sell as expected? Did you note how many authors on the second page of the thread did not adress that topic-question nor the possible answers at all and just came to rumble with me? Even although I said two times loud and clearly I have no hard feelings at all with SA? That I would like to see the personal fight ending, concentrating on the topic again? I even do not pose any demands at SA. customers can do that, people like me who have not invested any money so far, do not demand anything. They just look at it, listen to people who bought it, and then decide Yes or No. Most of the feedback is positive, a minor part of feedback mentioned some minor flaws that most people liking DW do not mention, like a PC mag often does, but a more balanced approach I think considers both light and the little shadow there is. The latter method is what I prefer. concerning the patch-thing: even some members (some means: not many, but SOME) of this forum that are here for as many years as I am and that went through SC as well, have said in the past they have DW shelved until it is patched. I wonder why. Obviously they all got it wrong what hinders them.

Neither you nor many others cared much for trying to find an answer to the topic's original question, why DW does not sell as SA wished. That in this forum only enthusiasts are present, for the most , is no wonder and so their love for it is no real explanation of anything pro or contra. they choosed only to see the light, and ignore the little shadow there is. fine. Many more people outside this forum know DW is there. But not too many seem to be interested, not as many as was expected. I mentioned some reasons (DW beeing a niche product, SC still popular and thus a rival lowering it's chances, community smaller than for Flightsims, complexity in this case (subsimming not as popular as flightsimming) working against DW's spreading - as I was told by several people whom I talked to- ; sub-only-lovers with no interest in ships and flyers only get one sub more for that above-average-price, and - sorry - still no final patch), and then I came under fire immediately, with the possible reasons that I gave, and that I find reasonable, not thought about by anyone anymore (except Mark, who stayed with the topic). For the sake of completeness I mentioned the missing patch again, and boooom.

I think some people are oversensitive when one reminds them that their one and only true love maybe is not shared by people out there in the big wide world, and that there maybe are reasons that could explain this. I did not mention all these reasons to make these people feel uncomfortable, but simply because I think that they are the answer to the topic'S question - a topic that someone else has started, not me, btw.

I remember the SC debates we had four years ago, or five years? It had some very serious, sometimes showstopping bugs (in the beginning, the freezing after saved games reloaded, f.e.), and the community was split. There were those who ignored all this and insisted that no patch is needed and everything was perfect and fine, big fun. and then there were others who listed the things that did not work, or caused freezed games, - and the first group used to attack the second group for even mentioning these things, saying it all were not true. The official review on the board did not even mention a single glitch, flaw, bug or error. Nevertheless three patches had been released, I think - i wonder why. Took them over a year. DW may not be as uncompleted as SC had been in the bgeinning (I never commented on that comparison, I do not know DW, and I am aware that most people agree that DW is in better sahape than SC was at release), but the habit that only exclusively positive feedback is allowed, no negative, seem to be as present as before."

Please keep me out of the equation, guys. It's not about Skybird, but why SA themselves indicated that sales are not as well as they expected. The question is why this is so. Skybird and his crusade for patches hardly can be the only reason for that, don't you think?

[Skybird]

"ShootToKill", my God, now Ii remember! Should have remembered it earlier. Still have it somehwere, printed out, laying between those old manuals! That was a very helpful piece of work back then! Thanks, even with several years of delay! It's a shame I never manged to get EAW running stable on my new rigs.

[John Channing]

Good old Skybird.

Never use 5 words when there are 500 lying around doing nothing.

JCC

[Kapitan]

its a fact bullsh^t sells things ie cars and things computers are a good thing to sell but i still prefer cars

[John Channing]

Originally Posted by Kapitain

its a fact bullsh^t sells things ie cars and things computers are a good thing to sell but i still prefer cars :up:

And what, pray tell, do you do for a living?

JCC

[timmyg00]

Originally Posted by John Channing

Good old Skybird.

Never use 5 words when there are 500 lying around doing nothing.

JCC

Watch it, John, that's dangerously close to an "attack"

I guess there's a little Don Quixote in all of us... I'm glad I'm not a windmill.

For the record - and back to the topic - I agree with MarkShot's comments:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

I do think the game was adequately publicized if the primary customer base are those who previously have some interest in the naval warfare genre. If you were a strategy/hardcore/grognard wargamer or naval enthusiast and regular user of the Internet to follow your hobby, then any number of the main sites for this type of thing had given this game some play.

In terms of impulse buyers at the checkout line, this was a stealth offering. However, it is unlikely that someone with no prior interest other than "cool box art" would really get past the learning curve this game entails. Besides the cost benefit analysis of advertising/sales to such customers, if I was developer, I don't know if I would have wanted to achieve sales without turning the purchasers (impulse sales) into a loyal customer base. It seems Sonalysts is in this for the long haul and perhaps the marketting of the game reflected such a philosophy.

And I think that Luft's comments are a little too conspiracy-theory-minded to be true, but one never knows, does one? Mulder?

TG