The failure of DW

[Dr.Sid]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

I tend to dislike these attempts at trying to please everyone... I look at DW and PacStorm in a similar light. Either focus on making a really good simulator for a specific platform or give me a good strategic level game with lots of platforms, but don't try to do both at the same time. DW was a little heavier on the sim and lighter on strategy, PacStorm was the opposite; and both end up falling short in the end.

What part of DW is strategy ? The fact you can give orders to helo from FFG ? For me DW is clean sim.

[Zander]

i voted "bad programing" too.
even so, i would buy this game again in a heart beat.

[Seademon]

dangerous waters didn't sell because

1. It didn't have any COPY PROTECTION !!! There was no cd key to get past.

2. The game itself with multiple stations in each platform, while a good concept, was useless due to the high learning curve needed for each station and co-ordinating all that was hard and took a long time to learn wtf you were doing.

3. Then when you had a group of guys/girls playing the game on the one platform, they needed the skill level in the section they were in to operate effectively and the proper communication skills between each station to do it. It required constant training, situational awareness and command discipline, something that some gamers tried but it just burnt them out.

4. Yes the AI didn't help much.

5. Coupled with the fact that the sonar could be seen from one side of the map to the other in minutes, unlike 688, while an old game, it offered better adversarial possibilities as you had to use the sonar and work at it to get contacts when they became acknowledged more closer in.

So basically the simulation was not a "game" it became hard work, so then it left the realms of being fun to being hard work. I know i lost patience with it and dropped it as it didn't engage me and hold my interest in that regard. no fun factor.

Sure if it had a dynamic campaign it would be slightly better, but the grass roots problems would still remain. DW was built on SC which was also a failure, it was looked apoun as the great blue water hope after games like 688 and it failed to live up to the hype.

[Shearwater]

In general, I would agree that lack of copy protection is a major reason that games do not sell well. But I don't think that it applies to DW.

I think that the game in itself is useless without the printed manual, and having it copied at a local copy shop is just as expensive, or more, than buying it here on this site. I think that Sonalysts are still making money with it. So even it you haven't bought the game, you probably want to buy the manual.
However, I'll agree with you concerning the steep learning curve, and the manual does virtually nothing to solve this. You have to figure it out yourself, some way or other, and that's plain annoying. Even when buying a coffee maker, the manual doesn't explain how the thing works, but what I have to do when I want coffee. The DW manual works the other way round.

As for the fun factor: I've stated it above that I don't play DW for fun. It's something other than that - call it enjoyment or satisfaction. I don't expect it to keep me at the edge of the seat for all the thrill. Rather, I like it when ID, TMA and all that work out and I can track and hunt down a sub. Flaws and all, DW is still second to none in that category.

[XabbaRus]

I disagree that Sub Command was a failure, in fact for submarine warfare I find it more enjoyable than DW especially with SCX installed.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Castout

Imo if DW would use 3D graphics like that of Silent Hunter III it would sell hot.

Right now DW only appeals to those who have strong interest in the world of modern naval sim.

There's other issues too. Scripted scenarios lack replay value and scripted campaigns are even worse. To do a multiplayer simulation realistically would take hours of time that people don't have. I mean... geez... one time I played one and people were complaining when they hadn't located the enemy after only 10 minutes of play time. The name of the game in ASW is hide-and-seek, so it's SUPPOSED to take a long time to find people, but 10 minutes is way too long for most video gamers.

[Nexus7]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

The name of the game in ASW is hide-and-seek, so it's SUPPOSED to take a long time to find people, but 10 minutes is way too long for most video gamers.

Especially when there is no intelligence reports at all, you can end up not finding anyone after 2 hours because you search in the wrong direction... Realistically it takes days/weeks I guess? And seek and find nothing certainly isn't fun.

This has been one of the frustration factors to me in regards of DW.

The 10 minutes, was the "Weapons Free" limit in a lot of SC multiplay scenarios.

[SeaQueen]

It depends on the relationship between the sensor ranges of the platforms involved and the sizes of the areas to be searched. I'd argue that in general it's more like hours to days depending on the platform and the scenario.

Originally Posted by Nexus7

Especially when there is no intelligence reports at all, you can end up not finding anyone after 2 hours because you search in the wrong direction... Realistically it takes days/weeks I guess? And seek and find nothing certainly isn't fun.

This has been one of the frustration factors to me in regards of DW.

The 10 minutes, was the "Weapons Free" limit in a lot of SC multiplay scenarios.

[Ori_b]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

There's other issues too. Scripted scenarios lack replay value and scripted campaigns are even worse. To do a multiplayer simulation realistically would take hours of time that people don't have. I mean... geez... one time I played one and people were complaining when they hadn't located the enemy after only 10 minutes of play time. The name of the game in ASW is hide-and-seek, so it's SUPPOSED to take a long time to find people, but 10 minutes is way too long for most video gamers.

I'm ambarrased to say i have never finished the Karasea search V2. This is one of the things in my never-ending TO-DO list.
I totally agree on the scripted missions. This was one of my main problems, i didnt dare to start a mission just like that before mastering everything beacuse i was afraid of ruining the mission for me due to limited replay value. But that was the problem, i never had enough time on my hand to master it all (1st son was born few months after i bought DW, so spare time was something i didn't, and still dont, have much of it on my hand).

My problem is that i respect this sim too much that it prevents me from just playing it for fun (very silly of me i know).
But hey, i reinstalled it few weeks ago, and trying to get into it again (did i mention twin daughters are on the way so help me god).

BTW, DW's guide is far from being a benchmark, it really lacked the general picture explanations about the sea warfare tactics, sonar, sound conditions and so, not enough drawings and diagrams in the training sections like the 688i old manual or the other great guides written by other players since SC.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Ori_b

I'm ambarrased to say i have never finished the Karasea search V2. This is one of the things in my never-ending TO-DO list.

Heh, if you're going to do it in real time, bring a book because unless you're lucky, it'll take at least a few hours.

[Neptunus Rex]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

By the way, how much dead is it ? 98% ?

Is that dead, a little dead, or mostly dead?

My opinion is that even though most subsimers are passionate about the genre, from the cost point of view, the ROI is not high enough to sustain the effort. Jamie Carlson and Kim Castro of Sonalysts were very heavily involved here for quite some time but either moved on or were reassigned.

[Nexus7]

Originally Posted by Neptunus Rex

from the cost point of view, the ROI is not high enough to sustain the effort.

ROI ? reason of Involvement ??

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

ROI ? reason of Involvement ??

ROI : Return on Investment.

[Sheppard]

I voted bad programming -- mainly because there was no way to do an option which said "insufficiently fast time compression".

This also limited Fleet Command, by the way, it's SLOOOW time compression.

[Dr.Sid]

Yes .. this is important feature. And DW does not manage to run at full 32x in most late campaign missions.

Sure, it is CPU demanding problem. But I like SH approach with simplified simulation to achieve higher compression.