Hellships

[Jmack]

THIS IS A MUST READ ... HELLSHIPS

http://www.west-point.org/family/jap...pow/photos.htm

AND IT RAISES A QUESTION ... WOULD YOU SINK A JAPANESE SHIP IF IT WAS CARRYING POW'S ( the problem here is that you wouldnt know i guess ) and things like this happened
http://www.cofepow.org.uk/remembranc...Maru/index.htm

its a very nice link and it has some very good shots of japanese " merchant " ships

[Safe-Keeper]

No, I wouldn't. I immerse myself sufficiently in the game to not do things I do not consider right. Such as shooting up innocent fishermen, etc.

But then there's the problem of not knowing if the ships carry POWs.

One of the greatest maritime catastrophes of all time was when British planes sunk a prison ship in Norway. Many, many Norwegian and Russian prisoners lost their lives. It is not known whether or not the UK knew it was a prison vessel or just another "fat target".

[Jmack]

anyway it was some of the best japanese merchant images i've seen so far

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

No, I wouldn't. I immerse myself sufficiently in the game to not do things I do not consider right. Such as shooting up innocent fishermen, etc.

I sort of do this too, but instead of just leaving fishing ships alone I attack them with my deck gun by shooting out there propellers/engine (Only 1 or 2 shots) and pull up beside it and stay there for a few minutes "helping them" on there way off the ship... then once there "gone" I finish off the ship with my deck gun

[Jmack]

i read somewhere that by the final period of the war and when the U-Boats started going to the US coast they attacked ( boarded ) fishing boats and small ships for food and fuel.

[HunterICX]

The problem was, I think that nobody knew that there where POW's on that ship
they just shoots what Hostile.

Like me I,m an Triggerhappy SubCommander that shoot everything thats big enough.

I dont shoot the fishin boats because its an Waste of time and ammo....

[joea]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

The problem was, I think that nobody knew that there where POW's on that ship
they just shoots what Hostile.

Like me I,m an Triggerhappy SubCommander that shoot everything thats big enough.

I dont shoot the fishin boats because its an Waste of time and ammo....

Exactly how can you know if a ship is carrying POWs or not.

[Jmack]

this could happen in sh4 ... no ?

[don1reed]

The USS Squalus sunk in eastcoast waters before the war (freak accident). Her sister boat, USS Sculpin found her and some of her surviving crew were rescued.

from Squalus/Sailfish website:

Squalus was raised in the summer of 1939, and after repair was recommissioned as U.S.S. Sailfish, reportedly at the suggestion of President Roosevelt. Sailors generally consider renaming a ship to be bad luck, but Sailfish—sometimes, despite the objections of her subsequent commanding officers, called "Squalfish"—survived the war with a total bag of 40,000 tons, eventually being scrapped in 1948. In an ironic turn of fate, Sailfish sank the Japanese aircraft carrier Chuyo, which had been carrying half of the surviving crew members from Sculpin, which had located Squalus in 1939. Only one of those being transported by Chuyo survived and, along with the other survivors, spent the remainder of the war as slave laborers in Japan.

Note: about that lone Sculpin survivor...he didn't find out that Squalus/Sailfish sunk the Chuyo, on which he was being transported as a prisoner, until years after the war.

[Safe-Keeper]

Would it not be possible to give you some sort of radio message (such as "Large Merchant "S/S Kobe Star" transitting Formosa-Kobe with Chinese POWs on-boat. Do not engage").

That is, if the ship's name is on her. I think that the sinking of POWs should give you a renown penalty, taking into consideration if you knew what the ship was carrying.

[don1reed]

absolutly. FRUPAC (naval intel) had broken many of the codes (via Ultra) and pretty much knew what was going down. Just as British Intel via Enigma, knew of the German air raid on Conventry but had to let it take place for fear of "showing their hand" re knowing the code.

The orig SH used to show where convoys would spawn, alot of players used those spawnings as being ULTRA tip offs.

When the TANG self destructed (runaway torp), it was thru ULTRA that the Navy learned there were survivors, specifically, LTC Dick O'Kane; however, the USGOVT had sent condolences to Mrs. O'Kane...even though they knew he was alive and imprisioned, they could not tell her for fear of devulging the secret.

Note: "Pappy" Boyington (Black Sheep Sqdn), also a POW is attributed for keeping the tortured and dying O'Kane alive to survive the war.

[SkvyWvr]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Would it not be possible to give you some sort of radio message (such as "Large Merchant "S/S Kobe Star" transitting Formosa-Kobe with Chinese POWs on-boat. Do not engage").

That is, if the ship's name is on her. I think that the sinking of POWs should give you a renown penalty, taking into consideration if you knew what the ship was carrying.

I think it would be very unrealistic. The location of POWs was not common knowledge. This is why there were the above mentioned tragedies. I would rather have a notiication and a penalty after the fact.

[don1reed]

I agree with Skvy Wvr, as even though Naval Intel had a handle on the situaltion, doesn't mean that every swinging Richard of a Sub Cmdr knew or was informed. The basic rule in intelligence is "Need to Know" intelligence.

cheers,

[Capt. D]

Originally Posted by don1reed

I agree with Skvy Wvr, as even though Naval Intel had a handle on the situaltion, doesn't mean that every swinging Richard of a Sub Cmdr knew or was informed. The basic rule in intelligence is "Need to Know" intelligence.

I have to agree that it may or may not have been known if POWs were on ships that became targets of US Boats. Ultra was available and was used, however intel was not always 100%. As histroy has shown through all wars - many men have died from "friendly fire". As a sub commander with a number one job of sinking ships to starve the Japs into submission, you may not have known who was aboard the ship in your scope. Of course one would not intentionally sink a ship with a large Red Cross on it, but the Japs rarely if ever used such ships and if they did - maybe as a trick to really ship war materials. What penalty should be given to a commander doing his job? None! He may and probably did feel like a skunk when he found out. but did the upper level commanders even let them know what happened? If they did would not that sub driver become "gun shy".

We need to have a sub sim that can portray as close to realism as possiable what it was like to be on patrol. We talk - in other "Threads" of wish lists. We want to "see" the landings at Normandy(?) we want to see "tank action"(?) This is suppose to be a sub sim. I do not recall any sub commander ever turning on the "boob tube" in his state room to see the Normandy landings! But, I am sure when they took place an announcement was made over the 1MC or even a radio message "piped over " the 1MC about the landings. That is how we should learn about those events - and we should know about them. Sub life was lonely. With the few exceptions of wolf packs you were by yourself on patrol. That is how this sim should be.

Let's have what has been discussed in other "Threads" - better graphics, better crew management. Let's have use of both scopes (as in SHIII vs other SH sims). Lets have the progression of better equipment - radar, torpedoes etc. that actually happened during the course of the war. Let's have more realism as has been discussed e.g. depth charge damage seen - water coming in from pipes or getting higher on the deck. Broken glass and the command for emergancy lights. (Manual rig for red or silent running and the secure from both has been avaliable since SH). Maybe reports from each compartment/dept. on damage. Let's have the ability to visit compartments within the boat and have the graphics outstanding! Let's be in the conning tower during the attack or in the control room with the ability to adjust the angle of the planes manually.

Get the sim involved in what it was like to be on a sub and on a patrol. Let's have the ability to land or pick up shore parties/commandos. Maybe here we could have the "land action" some have asked for. With all the books that are out there on the WWII Subamarine War, there should not be any need for information on what the patrol part of the sim should be like or what could take place - hey do we need to get the gold bars out of the Philippines - it happened! But please, we were in the Pacific, and if we should not be able to "snap" from one part of the boat to another, we really should not be able to "snap" to Normandy beach on June 6 1944.

The war in the Pacific was the war in the Pacific. The Atlantic/European war was just that. Did they combine? Yes, with what war effort would be given to the Pacific vs the European. The defeat of Nazi Germany was the main thrust and the PTO had to do with what they had until supplies and focus was increased. Let the sim reflect that. We should know what was occuring elsewhere (maybe if we are in "port" we have an option to view an historical news reel on up to date issues) and what effect that had on what we were doing or had, but we should not be able to "bounce" from one to the other. You were either a sub commander sinking Jap ships or a tank commander with Patton. You were not both.

Sorry for the length.

Happy Hunting

[rcs929]

My understanding is that the Japanese didn't always mark the ships as POW ships. If I have no information stating that my current target is a POW ship in hand, then yes, I would shoot at it. Otherwise I think a situation would arise where I let every merchant go because it 'could' have POWs or I second guess that it 'could' have had POWs on board & I killed them. Now If it is marked as such or I have information that leads me to believe that a ship in my area is a possible POW ship then I would let the ship pass by while remaining undetected.

If I learn after the patrol that POWs were on board a target ship that I sunk, personally I would feel sad at first. But then I'd put the blame on the Japanese (rightly so, imo) for not marking the ship as such then be angry and want to fight 'em that much harder!