How about the currents ?

[Rosencrantz]

Just one thought, not a new one: How about the currents? With a new weather model + celestical navig. ? "Groundbreaker"?

-RC-

[DeepSix]

Modeled currents would indeed have to be a groundbreaker (and a most pleasing one).:hmm:

[Aside to any devs who may be listening: face it, we want it all!]

[Rosencrantz]

Any ideas how harsh it would be to do the current model?
On different sea area your boat would be moving to a certain direction with certain speed. Hmm... How is it in real life? Let's have an example:

There is a current going straight fm north to south at speed 3 knots per hour. A vessel is heading to north, speed 3 knots. How much the current affects in RL? The vessel is moving 3 knots contra water, but what could be the speed contra seafloor. I doubt it's 3 knots vs. 3 knots = 0 knots. Or is it? Then submerged sub should make 6 knots to reach even 3 knots contra seafloor. Can't be.

Sailors, please...?


-RC-

[DeepSix]

The best example I can think of is Lombok Strait, where subs transiting between Fremantle and their patrol areas had to - IIRC - fight the current going to station but could drift with it coming off station. Its speed varied but I think it was about 6 knots. That, I think, is one of the fastest currents the boats had to deal with. Seems like I read about one boat making about 1 knot forward speed through there. I'll dig around and see if I can find the specifics.

[Rosencrantz]

Yep, I did some investigating too.
I did remeber it correct, so if you are traveling straight towards the stream with equal speed your speed will be 0 contra seafloor. Everybody can imagine what kind of affect the currents would have in your tactics.
For example, if you turn your heading in the stream after an attack, you'll get a big bonus to your speed, and in an hour you'll be 6 nm's off the point you lauched the torpedoes (if you are driving 3 knots and the speed of current is 3 knots also). So, DD's will be far away maybe, or not... If they can take this in account.

But anyway: More I think dynamic weather, celestical navig. and streams, more interested in I am. Navigation would not be a problem to a casual player, if the process is done by the navigator. (AI). There has been good ideas for the navig. system. Anyway I would like to get rid of the GPS-system.

-RC-

This is actually an effect well known to pilots. When navigating in any kind of wind, wind speed and direction have to be taken into account, or you'll wind up miles from where you wanted to be. Flying at 90 knots perpendicular (right angles) to a 10-knot wind means that every hour you'll be another 9 (nautical) miles off course.

If your u-boat is submerged and making 4 knots against a 6-knot current, yes, you will actually travel 2 knots backward. Calculating the directional 'push' at any angle other than 90 degrees to your direction of travel makes the calculations much more difficult. Pilots at least have radio beacons they can use to triangulate their exact position.

[Drebbel]

Yep, in most planes that display "flight data" to the passengers they have air speed and ground speed being displayed. The difference is the "current" of the wind.

[Rosencrantz]

Steve wrote:

Calculating the directional 'push' at any angle other than 90 degrees to your direction of travel makes the calculations much more difficult.

That's right Steve. When I was a young lad, I tried to study the basic navig. fm the books. Left it because I didn't got a chance to try it in practice. But let's get back to the business:

I found some calculators you can try in the net so I took a fast look how the different currents affects to a "course making good". Currents really would have a huge punch in the game, especially and more frequent in the situations you are trying to reach a contact fm a distance (based on radio reports and so on...) I think often in close range currents would act minor part, at least if you can get yourself ahead of the target. But I'm wondering if there is this big BUT: Navigation in the currents.

I'm willing to learn new things and I think also most of us "old" subsimmers would like to see the currents finaly in the game (I'm not totally positive if DW allready got them), but I think a casual player would need a very good AI assistant, or otherwise he might find himself from Alaska coast rather than fm Bungo Suido. Even in the game. So the "realistic currents" should be, again, optional. That would be the most simple way to solve the navig. problems caused by the streams.

So, if looking for a groundbreaker I would still say Abbandoning the GPS-navig. + dynamic weather model + currents. But I don't think these ideas should lead to overlooking the better AI, especially convoy tactics like zigging.

Greetings,
-RC-

[-Pv-]

Imagine what currents would do to your torpedo attacks. Also think about zigging convoys in currents. One moment they're going 12 knots at 120 magnetic and the next they're going 7 knots 180 mag (turning dynamics included.)

You're under dive bomber attack and you speed to 15 knots so you can do some turning evasion and turn into the current slowing you to 10 knots.

You're under depth charge attack and trying to turn off the attacker's track on run silent and the only place you can turn to evade is into the current.

You've got a perfect attack setup. You just managed to figure out the convoy's zig cycle and after shaddowing for two days you have a target setup where the convoy cannot zig for a short while as they move through a straight. You hit a current change in the database just as you are about to fire. You adjust gyro and turn the boat a bit and the convoy zags passing out the other end of the straight. Maybe you managed all this fine with no problems and the torpedoes hit the current change knocking them 3 degrees off track every 100 M.

Shure this could be an option, but why spend thousands of dollars coding in an option 90% of us would likely stop using after a while because jobs, families, obligations prevent us from spending 14 hours a day playing a computer game (and I'm a hard core sub gamer.)
-Pv-

[Drebbel]

I think I go with PV, seems indeed a lot of coding for litle bit additional game value.

And what is the situation with flight sims, do the model windspeed ? And does it have an effect of the plane and its surrpunding ?

[Gizzmoe]

Originally Posted by Drebbel

And what is the situation with flight sims, do the model windspeed ?

Yes! I wouldn´t play a flightsim that doesn´t model wind effects. AFAIK there isn´t one that doesn´t.

[Drebbel]

Originally Posted by Gizzmoe

Yes! I wouldn´t play a flightsim that doesn´t model wind effects. AFAIK there isn´t one that doesn´t.

Impressive. Does it also effect things like rockets and how the bombs fall down ?

[Gizzmoe]

Originally Posted by Drebbel

Impressive. Does it also effect things like rockets and how the bombs fall down ?

In Falcon4 it does, but I´m only 99% sure. I rarely use free-fall bombs and when I do it´s a low-level pass, so there would only be a minimal effect. The HUD and CCIP reticle are wind-corrected though. I don´t know if IL2 models that, I only fly fighters.

[Rosencrantz]

Pv wrote:

Imagine what currents would do to your torpedo attacks. Also think about zigging convoys in currents. One moment they're going 12 knots at 120 magnetic and the next they're going 7 knots 180 mag (turning dynamics included.)

Well, your example is not in the order, Pv. When you are using your TDC you think just targets speed contra water, not contra seafloor, because the very same current has its affect to the submarine and torpedoes as well as the convoy. So, most in the cases where you get yourself close to the convoy, the affect of the current would be 0. That's why, as I previously said, the currents have their biggest affect usually only with the distance.

Currents, or their possible affects, are very complicated, I think. Sometimes the current could have a huge affect to your tactic, but maybe in the most of the cases they wouldn't affect at all. Originally I thought they would be an interesting part of the more advanced navigation model, but because they propably would be acting just a minor part in the tactic, then it's maybe like Drebbel wrote:

seems indeed a lot of coding for litle bit additional game value.

-RC-

[Rosencrantz]

-Pv-!

Your post sounds so frustrated and funny I can't leave the thread without giving couple more answers to you:

You're under dive bomber attack and you speed to 15 knots so you can do some turning evasion and turn into the current slowing you to 10 knots.

Well, if the plane is making 200 knots, I think it's just the same is the boat making 10 or 15 knots contra seafloor. And if this makes you feel better, you could also turn off the current and get few more knots. Personally I prefer to do crashdive or man the guns + accelerating.

You're under depth charge attack and trying to turn off the attacker's track on run silent and the only place you can turn to evade is into the current.

I quess you remember Prien. I'm sure he lived through some exiting moments trying to beat the current when he was heading out fm Scapa. And he was on the surface.

You hit a current change in the database just as you are about to fire.

What "current change" into what "database"? You mean TDC? Read my first answer to you, please. I have noticed in this forum there is an unwriten rule to study business before giving examples with the tone of the master OR otherwise it's made to be clear if one is not SURE. That's not only polite but also a good way to act if trying to avoid messing around unnecessarily.



Greetings,
-RC-