"The brain death of NATO"

[Skybird]

https://www.economist.com/europe/201...-is-brain-dead


For once, I must agree with him. Well flown, Macronman. Myself, I do not give much for article 5 anymore. I also do not have faith in the US anymore. Which means: NATO is only little more than a memory of the past, an echo, an empty hull. I do not put trust into it anymore. As I see it, Europe currently is posing as an exposed prey: militarily, cyberspace-wise, economically, fiscally. Ironically pushed there not by rivals from the outside, but by he ever-hungry maggots within.

[Jimbuna]

I think many in Europe would agree, he is the first to come out publicly.

[Rockstar]

It isn't that the U.S. can no longer be counted on to come to Europe's aid or that we are turning our back on NATO. That IMO is just political hay meant to make raising a European army more appealing to the European masses. It is, I think, because we provide most of the money and military might to NATO. The U.S. tends to use that as a tool to throw its weight around influencing European foreign affairs and often times contrary to Macron and Merkel would like. As Macron has said: Europe needs to start thinking of itself strategically as a geopolitical power; otherwise we will “no longer be in control of our destiny.” That right there is the crux of the matter.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Skybird

https://www.economist.com/europe/201...-is-brain-dead


For once, I must agree with him. Well flown, Macronman. Myself, I do not give much for article 5 anymore. I also do not have faith in the US anymore. Which means: NATO is only little more than a memory of the past, an echo, an empty hull. I do not put trust into it anymore. As I see it, Europe currently is posing as an exposed prey: militarily, cyberspace-wise, economically, fiscally. Ironically pushed there not by rivals from the outside, but by he ever-hungry maggots within.

If only Europe had some credible external threat (Baltics trying to invent it do not count).

Originally Posted by Rockstar

It isn't that the U.S. can no longer be counted on to come to Europe's aid or that we are turning our back on NATO. That IMO is just political hay meant to make raising a European army more appealing to the European masses. It is, I think, because we provide most of the money and military might to NATO. The U.S. tends to use that as a tool to throw its weight around influencing European foreign affairs and often times contrary to Macron and Merkel would like. As Macron has said: Europe needs to start thinking of itself strategically as a geopolitical power; otherwise we will “no longer be in control of our destiny.” That right there is the crux of the matter.

I think Macron is just a European federalist.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Good point, what exactly is the threat which requires a European standing army? Like I said I think the real desire is to reduce U.S. influence in European foreign economic affairs. Hell as it stand Europe couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper sack and I cant see where they could pull it together to develop a effective fighting force.

I think this is either about out of region deployments or about the federal nation-state building.

[Mr Quatro]

You don't prepare for a war to lose a war ...

Could NATO hold it's own till help from surely a friendly country like USA came to their aid?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

Could NATO hold it's own till help from surely a friendly country like USA came to their aid?

There are regions inside NATO-Europe's geographical borders and there are scenarios where I would doubt this. Still, NATO wants to geographically grow, like the EU as well. Recently France has blocked Albania and Macedonia from starting negotiations about EU membership, and all other EU countries were shocked and pissed, but I think France is right there. You do not form stronger alliances by adding more and more weak members. You strengthen the overall alliance by adding stronger members, and you keep the overall strength if adding members whose individual strength is at least on the level of the alliance's strength. By adding weaker members you weaken the alliance, like adding water in your drink: it doe snot become more plentiful oin taste and intensity,l but it gets watered down. That is true for the EU. And that is true for NATO. Problem is that politicians live in a bubble and are immune to unwanted realities, they do not understand that symbolic acting is not the same like strength in the real world. A claim is not the substance of things - a claim is just sound waves, or ink on paper.

German wannabe defence ministress AKK talks about Germany now needing to face more military international actvities. Its not the first time this woman intellectually implodes over things she suggests. She has no word lost on getting Germany first into a shape where it could actually support and sustain such raises in international engagements. Heck, AKK even mentioned a German military stand in the Far East, against China. With what, stupid woman - with what...??? One frigate (with a broken down helicopter aboard)? A flight of recce tornados? Two weeks ago she tried herself on resolving Syria. The joke-ful result from her ambition already is legend now. Putin, Erdoghan, Assad - they all shoke their heads about so much dilletancy, and even at NATO HQ they were highly amused, and just too polite to laugh out loud while the cameras still were running.

Thats what you get when you leave dealing with hard realities to novices and laymen not having a clue of matters and things. You become the laugh of the day, week and month. Personally I think the job of a defence minister should be reserved to somebody with a minimum of several years of own serving experience in the armed forces. Instead we get the second clueless but over-ambitious barrack Barbie in a row who sees the defence ministry only as a starting block for her own run for the chancellory. God have mercy with us.

[Skybird]

Merkel has just criticised Macronman's "choice of words" as being "unneeded", and said that NATO was "indispensable". And by that she shows again that she just puts her head into the sand: Because Macronman did not say that NATO was not needed, he criticised instead that although we should understand it is needed, we let it down so that it cannot fulfill its indispensable function anymore.



Denial of reality.