Of SH5's arcadeness - or lack thereof

msalama · 02-11-10, 03:50 PM

1st off, what do you really want? This?

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/

...and if not, what? What should a proper subsim include to make it realistic? And if SH5 isn't, when released, what should be modded / moddable?

Now I of course know comparing DCS:BS to SHxxx is apples and Ladas, or whatever. But still, if realism is what you guys are striving at, then what _is_ realism exactly?

The abovementioned (see link) chopper game is however one of the really rare true simulators out there ATM. Now how should SH5 compare to it IYO, or at all?

...asks a punter crashing his Shark almost daily - plus occasionally firing up U-11's engines in SH3 / GWX too

Platapus · 02-11-10, 03:58 PM

My idea of realism is to be put in a position where I have to make actionable decisions based on a close approximation of the information a real Sub captain had.

I am looking more for mental stimulation (problem solving) than in visual stimulation (glitzy graphic eye-candy).

I want a choice between

1. Allowing the computer controlled "crew" do is job
2. Allowing me to take the place of some of the "crew" so I can experience the simulation of doing their job.

There is a certain level of graphics that will enhance my enjoyment of the simulation, but there comes a point when additional graphical renderings start becoming eye-candy and not actionable (this will be different for each player).

So basically, to me, a simulation is focused on the actionable decisions that need to be made to complete the mission. For me a simulation is less on how realistic something looks, but should be for focused on how realistic something operates.

capthelm · 02-11-10, 04:50 PM

i am beta tester for dcs .. and audio aid.

wait till you see the next project inline =sick

onelifecrisis · 02-11-10, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msalama

what _is_ realism exactly

Well, certain aspects are obvious. The subs IRL went at a certain speed, could dive to a certain depth (give or take), carried a certain number of torpedoes, and so on. They could take a certain amount of damage... blah blah blah... basically if accurate information is available then it should be in the game, at least on the highest realism setting.

But apart from that?

For me the ultimate realism would be achieved by partially randomising just about everything within realistic limits. With regards to information (such as range/bearing/depth reports for example) this should be done in such a way that the random element changes gradually over time, rather than being regenerated every time you get the report. That way I would not be able to get an accurate range reading (for example) by spamming the "report range to target" button and taking an average of the results. Apply the same logic to contacts plotted on the map, firing solutions, and basically everything else (including, notably, the behaviour of the AI and the handling of the sub) and you have IMO a nice level of realism right there.

By the way, I really don't know how SH5 has gotten the 'arcadey' label. Maybe it's 'PRG-like' but I really can't see anything that looks 'arcadey' to me.

Heretic · 02-11-10, 05:44 PM

The irony is that now that we have the technology to make a really realistic sim, the development costs are too high to make one for the relatively small audience. Investors demand a profit and so pursue the mass market. The flight sim audience is probably still large enough to support it, but we've always been a niche. A good base to mod from is likely our only option in the future

Iron Budokan · 02-12-10, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

By the way, I really don't know how SH5 has gotten the 'arcadey' label. Maybe it's 'PRG-like' but I really can't see anything that looks 'arcadey' to me.

It got tagged with that early on, iirc, from the first screenshots showing the periscope view.

Heretic · 02-12-10, 12:28 PM

I think it's all about making the sub sims more accessable to the casual gamer. I think this 'arcadey' vibe that some folks are getting is this accessability layer. Sub sims have a lot of specialized concepts and terminologly that hinder a casual gamers ability to get into the game so they give up in confusion and frustration. It looks to me like the Devs have added a layer of concepts and terms that casual gamers are familiar with. Levels and power ups and that sort of thing they've seen before and understand the concepts. This eases their entry into the game and makes the learning curve not so steep. This doesn't necessarily mean the sim underneath has been dumbed down.

THIS IS A GOOD THING. A hobby that is inaccessable to new people is a dead hobby. Look at what happened to board wargaming. It got so complex, from catering to the hard core, that it shut out new members. It was in a death spiral long before computer games finished it off. We may be seeing the same thing happening with modelling. The kits are so complex and expensive, kids can't easily get into the hobby.

Hopefully that sim we all hope for is still there under that layer and can be accessed thru game options or at least modders. I haven't yet seen anything definitive to indicate it's not there.

Targeting sub sims solely to the hard core simmers means sub sims DIE.

FIREWALL · 02-12-10, 12:33 PM

@ Heretic DRM aside, I think you made a very good point that's hard to argue with.

mookiemookie · 02-12-10, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Budokan

It got tagged with that early on, iirc, from the first screenshots showing the periscope view.

If you want to be a stickler, having any sort of HUD (with realistic dials and gauges or no) at all when in the periscope view is "arcadey".

ichso · 02-12-10, 01:12 PM

But in that case you would need a button to ask for the current speed or something like this.
In real life you could just take a peek to the side at the gauges, in the game this would involve going away from the periscope screen and would be more complicated. So some readouts on the bottom bar are actually closer to a RL experience even when you don't have them in RL.

So some stylishly looking readouts are not unrealistic but rather unfitting. Its more a question of style, taste, immersion than of realism.

Iron Budokan · 02-12-10, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If you want to be a stickler, having any sort of HUD (with realistic dials and gauges or no) at all when in the periscope view is "arcadey".

I'm not arguing the point. It's valid. We had that in SH3. But the overall clutter that is apparent with this current iteration hurts the immersive quality, and rightly or wrongly, gives one pause.

mookiemookie · 02-12-10, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Budokan

I'm not arguing the point. It's valid. We had that in SH3. But the overall clutter that is apparent with this current iteration hurts the immersive quality, and rightly or wrongly, gives one pause.

Hee hee...I was just trying to be pedantic.

Heretic · 02-12-10, 01:51 PM

Shift-Z hides the HUD. Then you can use the in game gauges. Can't get any more immersive than that.

Nordmann · 02-12-10, 02:05 PM

It's not so much an issue of realism, but of themed aesthetics. While an interface is purely functional, it should be suited to the subject matter, namely the period in which the game takes place.

In my opinion, SH3 had the best GUI, especially with regards to the boat's mechanical systems (tube controls etc). SH4 was a step back, not as bad as SH5's 21st century style, but the trend began there. What happened to the almost photo-realistic panels while in the periscope view?

Most of this will hopefully be fixed with various mods, as with other games, but it's still a let down.

Heretic · 02-12-10, 03:02 PM

If you look at it from the perspective of accessability I theorized above, it makes sense. If you're looking to expand your market to casual gamers, you want things to look familiar to them.

Making it the way we would like (and will quickly be modded to, I'm sure) says to the casual gamer, "This game is unlike what you're used to and quite complex to boot. Perhaps you should run along now and play something else." - not a good way to grow your market.

Of course, I'm just pulling this all out of my a** and have no special insight into anything.

02-11-10, 03:50 PM	#1
msalama Samurai Navy Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: In an octopus's garden Posts: 565 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	Of SH5's arcadeness - or lack thereof 1st off, what do you really want? This? http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/ ...and if not, what? What should a proper subsim include to make it realistic? And if SH5 isn't, when released, what should be modded / moddable? Now I of course know comparing DCS:BS to SHxxx is apples and Ladas, or whatever. But still, if realism is what you guys are striving at, then what _is_ realism exactly? The abovementioned (see link) chopper game is however one of the really rare true simulators out there ATM. Now how should SH5 compare to it IYO, or at all? ...asks a punter crashing his Shark almost daily - plus occasionally firing up U-11's engines in SH3 / GWX too

02-11-10, 03:58 PM	#2
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,388 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	My idea of realism is to be put in a position where I have to make actionable decisions based on a close approximation of the information a real Sub captain had. I am looking more for mental stimulation (problem solving) than in visual stimulation (glitzy graphic eye-candy). I want a choice between 1. Allowing the computer controlled "crew" do is job 2. Allowing me to take the place of some of the "crew" so I can experience the simulation of doing their job. There is a certain level of graphics that will enhance my enjoyment of the simulation, but there comes a point when additional graphical renderings start becoming eye-candy and not actionable (this will be different for each player). So basically, to me, a simulation is focused on the actionable decisions that need to be made to complete the mission. For me a simulation is less on how realistic something looks, but should be for focused on how realistic something operates. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

02-11-10, 04:50 PM	#3
capthelm Captain Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 522 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	i am beta tester for dcs .. and audio aid. wait till you see the next project inline =sick __________________ "One torpedo ... one ship" my SH5 lighting mod http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkM5k8SXpWo my SH5 audio mod http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIN5RHeL8B8

02-12-10, 12:33 PM	#8
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	@ Heretic DRM aside, I think you made a very good point that's hard to argue with. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

02-12-10, 01:12 PM	#10
ichso Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Germany's oldest city alive Posts: 1,066 Downloads: 57 Uploads: 0	But in that case you would need a button to ask for the current speed or something like this. In real life you could just take a peek to the side at the gauges, in the game this would involve going away from the periscope screen and would be more complicated. So some readouts on the bottom bar are actually closer to a RL experience even when you don't have them in RL. So some stylishly looking readouts are not unrealistic but rather unfitting. Its more a question of style, taste, immersion than of realism. __________________ My Subskins: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=164169

02-11-10, 05:44 PM	#5
Heretic Commodore Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 617 Downloads: 240 Uploads: 2	The irony is that now that we have the technology to make a really realistic sim, the development costs are too high to make one for the relatively small audience. Investors demand a profit and so pursue the mass market. The flight sim audience is probably still large enough to support it, but we've always been a niche. A good base to mod from is likely our only option in the future

02-12-10, 12:28 PM	#7
Heretic Commodore Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 617 Downloads: 240 Uploads: 2	I think it's all about making the sub sims more accessable to the casual gamer. I think this 'arcadey' vibe that some folks are getting is this accessability layer. Sub sims have a lot of specialized concepts and terminologly that hinder a casual gamers ability to get into the game so they give up in confusion and frustration. It looks to me like the Devs have added a layer of concepts and terms that casual gamers are familiar with. Levels and power ups and that sort of thing they've seen before and understand the concepts. This eases their entry into the game and makes the learning curve not so steep. This doesn't necessarily mean the sim underneath has been dumbed down. THIS IS A GOOD THING. A hobby that is inaccessable to new people is a dead hobby. Look at what happened to board wargaming. It got so complex, from catering to the hard core, that it shut out new members. It was in a death spiral long before computer games finished it off. We may be seeing the same thing happening with modelling. The kits are so complex and expensive, kids can't easily get into the hobby. Hopefully that sim we all hope for is still there under that layer and can be accessed thru game options or at least modders. I haven't yet seen anything definitive to indicate it's not there. Targeting sub sims solely to the hard core simmers means sub sims DIE.

02-12-10, 01:51 PM	#13
Heretic Commodore Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 617 Downloads: 240 Uploads: 2	Shift-Z hides the HUD. Then you can use the in game gauges. Can't get any more immersive than that.

02-12-10, 02:05 PM	#14
Nordmann Commodore Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: England Posts: 628 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	It's not so much an issue of realism, but of themed aesthetics. While an interface is purely functional, it should be suited to the subject matter, namely the period in which the game takes place. In my opinion, SH3 had the best GUI, especially with regards to the boat's mechanical systems (tube controls etc). SH4 was a step back, not as bad as SH5's 21st century style, but the trend began there. What happened to the almost photo-realistic panels while in the periscope view? Most of this will hopefully be fixed with various mods, as with other games, but it's still a let down.

02-12-10, 03:02 PM	#15
Heretic Commodore Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 617 Downloads: 240 Uploads: 2	If you look at it from the perspective of accessability I theorized above, it makes sense. If you're looking to expand your market to casual gamers, you want things to look familiar to them. Making it the way we would like (and will quickly be modded to, I'm sure) says to the casual gamer, "This game is unlike what you're used to and quite complex to boot. Perhaps you should run along now and play something else." - not a good way to grow your market. Of course, I'm just pulling this all out of my a** and have no special insight into anything.

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