Rough nite...

But more TMO fun...

[Ducimus]

Sometime next week, it's gonna get rougher.

[SteamWake]

Gulp

Cool, bring it!

[Rockin Robbins]

I just watched a great episode from Victory at Sea showing those ghastly Y-throwers in action.

I'll never forget my first encounter with one of Ducimus' Y-throwers during a test session. Silent running and reluctant to be the first to blink, the DD approaches. The bearing is changing and increasing in rate of change. He's going to pass safely to starboard, we'll just sit and.......
KaBOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!! die.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I just watched a great episode from Victory at Sea showing those ghastly Y-throwers in action.

I'll never forget my first encounter with one of Ducimus' Y-throwers during a test session. Silent running and reluctant to be the first to blink, the DD approaches. The bearing is changing and increasing in rate of change. He's going to pass to starboard, we'll just sit and.......
KaBOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!
die.

[G2B]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Sometime next week, it's gonna get rougher.

Great were all in deep poop, (says the A-ganger)

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I'll never forget my first encounter with one of Ducimus' Y-throwers during a test session.

Was this test anytime recently?

edit:
I have to say, what i did with those throwers is devilishly simple, and yet im kinda proud of my creativity with that. I hope those escorts end up in the same category and work out as well as those "evil airplanes". I do worry though if it might be a bit much. Sometimes i wish i was modding for the atlantic, i could go whole hog and not feel the least bit like "maybe this is too much". lol

[Wilcke]

Nope, if you get caught you deserve to get hammered bring it on. Remember, everyone has read the books and they know all the secrets, time to put an end to the 'gamers'.

This really adds that great unknown, you roll the dice turn left, right or straight ahead. One of these choices will get you killed, sweet.

[magic452]

You will get your chance to mod the ATO soon enough

Magic

[Freiwillige]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Was this test anytime recently?

edit:
I have to say, what i did with those throwers is devilishly simple, and yet im kinda proud of my creativity with that. I hope those escorts end up in the same category and work out as well as those "evil airplanes". I do worry though if it might be a bit much. Sometimes i wish i was modding for the atlantic, i could go whole hog and not feel the least bit like "maybe this is too much". lol

Now Ducimus you know I have nothing but respect for you brother and if your modifications fall within the boundaries of historical capability I am all for it. But sometimes I think people love the game being harder just for the sake of being harder (Sadomasochists) but if its any harder than the real fleet boat boys had it I am not really interested. Now don't get me wrong I love what you do its just for me this is a Sim and while any Sim is far from perfect the closer it is to how it was the happier I am.

So for gods sake don't make it any worse than it was just for the sake of saying "My mod is hardest". Make it as it was easy or hard as I am no expert. Either way Im sure I will use your stuff as I always have despite the challenge. ll I am saying is be careful of the "Yes make it harder boys" which there seems to be no shortage of for the sake of taking away all historical fact.

Im sure my opinion will make me less popular but its my 2 cents none the less.

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, TMO never did claim to be a realism mod. (I encountered the Y-throwers right after you first put them on any ship, about a year ago if I recall). Escorts can and will locate you precisely below the layer without ever pinging you. They will answer the dinner bell from 2000 yards when you are at silent running and with a bad aspect ratio. Already, lots happens in TMO that didn't generally happen in real life.

It's still not up to the brutal Atlantic scene, especially with the most popular mod configuration. But it's darned challenging. It WILL get you killed and you can do everything right just to die. But that was real warfare too.

It can be argued that TMO, by giving you unrealistic danger, makes you play the game realistically. The real guys didn't know the capabilities of their enemies at all. We can just do research and game the system.

Or some bright modder reads that the vast majority of boats survived the war so he mods depth charges so the outcome is about the same percentage. Unfortunately, this means that a depth charge can explode on deck and you just continue on because it takes multiple hits even to damage you, several to kill you. Knowing this, you stay at periscope depth as the DD passes over, calmly sending one up the poop chute after he passes, knowing his DCs are harmless. Can you call that realism without laughing?

Realism isn't a static and well defined target. Its a frustrating and hidden target. In spite of that, TMO doesn't pretend to be realistic. In fact, it sneers in realism's general direction!

[Bubblehead1980]

Well said Robbins, you beat me to it.I maintain TMO does pretty well in the realism department for most part.Sure a little is booted in order to boost gameplay, such as making the escort's sensors a little better than they were but it's okay with me, because it keeps the game challenging.The reason I don't fool with other mods, although they are excellent in their own way, is because the escorts are just too easy for me.

Long ago in stock I figured out how to con my sub into ideal attack position as well mastering manual targeting. I learned the various tactics etc from reading many books.TMO made me go back to school a bit lol, to deal with the convoys zigging and the tougher escorts, but since i've been playing TMO almost a year, 90% of the time conning into a good or even ideal position is easy and somewhat effortless to be honest, most of the time anyway.

The thing that keeps me playing TMO is that the escorts are an actual threat, esp as you get into 43 and 44.Sure it may fudge realism slightly sometimes when they pinpoint your sub at 500 feet when thermal layer was at 200 and you are on silent running moving at 1 knot and one well placed charge can take out your sub instead of it being beaten into submission, how it was done most of the time, but hey it makes for unrivaled gameplay.However, one well placed charge could take out a sub, look up the USS Lagarto.

The Japanese escorts were not all pushovers as it seems many around here think.Sure, their tactics and technology were behind a bit earlier in the war, but they were still a threat then.As war moved on, they began running more and better escorted convoys which sank many of the subs the US lost during the way.Then you have the lucky ones who were nearly destroyed such as the Seahorse, Halibut etc and others like the Drum who were heavily damaged(conning tower had to be replaced)


That is all

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by magic452

You will get your chance to mod the ATO soon enough

Magic

No i'm not. I don't see myself moving to sh5. I'll be staying in SH4. Only way i would go to sh5, is if a box magically appeared on my doorstep without my knowledge. But i have too much time invested into this game to leave it for another uboat game. SH3 kinda burnt me out on uboats for quite awhile.

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

So for gods sake don't make it any worse than it was just for the sake of saying "My mod is hardest". Make it as it was easy or hard as I am no expert. Either way Im sure I will use your stuff as I always have despite the challenge. ll I am saying is be careful of the "Yes make it harder boys" which there seems to be no shortage of for the sake of taking away all historical fact.

Oh don't worry, i do have my limits. I would never make the game what i refer to as "atlantic hard", thought i could easily do so. Read further down.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Well, TMO never did claim to be a realism mod.

-snip---
It's still not up to the brutal Atlantic scene, especially with the most popular mod configuration. But it's darned challenging. It WILL get you killed and you can do everything right just to die. But that was real warfare too.

It can be argued that TMO, by giving you unrealistic danger, makes you play the game realistically. The real guys didn't know the capabilities of their enemies at all. We can just do research and game the system.

--snip--
Realism isn't a static and well defined target. Its a frustrating and hidden target. In spite of that, TMO doesn't pretend to be realistic. In fact, it sneers in realism's general direction!

Sorry for the cherry picking RR, but i felt this was a good time to reiterate a point, cause i don't want people to run around saying bad things about my brainchild. I define realism, by the player behaving realistically. As historical accuracy goes, i will try to be "in the ball park", but i will generalize a little bit in order to hit my desired goal of getting you the player to behave realistically.

As historical accuracy goes, while i may generalize some aspects, i won't ever deliberatly stray too far from historical fact. The new Y guns being one example, one class of ship DID have that many throwers, so up to that many was possible, though i wouldnt go sticking that many throwers on every damn tin can in the game. I want those type C/D's to inspire fear, so the Y guns on them, fudged by a factor of 2 extra, seemed like a good way to do it.

Now I always have thought that this is both a game, AND a sim, and it is sometimes tricky to maintain that balance, but it's a balance i strive for, and im usually worried about leaning too far over in one direction or another. So far, i think ive maintained a good balance. If i was to put a figure on it, id say 70 to 75% historical accuracy in order to maintain a simulation, and 25 to 30 % artistic license in order to facilitate an entertaining game. But again, the end goal is to get the player to behave as a skipper would have, and since you play the part of a submarine skipper, id call that a successful simulation if you end up behaving like, or have the same fears/frustrations as one in game.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I define realism, by the player behaving realistically. As historical accuracy goes, i will try to be "in the ball park", but i will generalize a little bit in order to hit my desired goal of getting you the player to behave realistically.

i think this is the hardest thing for people to understand sometimes is that some things in this game just arent ever going to be reaistic and to get an end result that comes "close" to a realistic outcome or experience then you sometimes need to cancel out one unrealistic element with your own realistic element in order to make it closer to how it was in real life.

there is such a "huge" difference between realism and what is realistic for modders to be able to achieve within the game.