Missing plane probably crashed in the Atlantic

Hartmann · 06-01-09, 07:44 PM

The jet carrying 228 people from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, that disappeared overnight as it entered an area of strong turbulence probably crashed into the Atlantic Ocean... very sad news

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/am...zil/index.html

GoldenRivet · 06-01-09, 09:58 PM

i hate to "assume" but the airbus is an electronics heavy vehicle - one lightning strike in the right place and you could lose something critical. i know this is a risk with all aircraft, but at least with cabled controls you can still go hands on all the way down and get something out of her.

I know three "bus drivers"... all three hate the airplane and cant wait to be awarded another bid for different equipment.

one went so far as to say "you tell the airplane to turn left... the computer thinks about it for a second or two... THEN the airplane responds, its like it has to decide whether or not to allow you to turn that way, its like HAL 9000 or something... 'sorry captain, im afraid i can't do that', whereas other similar aircraft i've flown hands on are more immediate in their responsiveness."

almost an exact quote from one of them (something to that extent anyhow)

i dont pretend to know the ins and outs of the systems of the airbus, but it seems to me that if it already seems to "approve" pilot inputs and you somehow fry the right part of the computer which manages that particular operation and your just along for the ride at that point.

Lurchi · 06-02-09, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

I know three "bus drivers"... all three hate the airplane and cant wait to be awarded another bid for different equipment.

I would love to see the face of the guy who has to deal with their request for "the reintroduction of cabled controls" into passenger planes. At least Chesley Sullenberger and his Crew didn't seem to have a problem with the responsiveness of their (Airbus) plane when they brought it safely down onto the Hudson river.

There aren't any facts right now - but it is pretty safe to say, that it takes a little bit more than a lightning to bring down such a plane.

GoldenRivet · 06-02-09, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurchi

I would love to see the face of the guy who has to deal with their request for "the reintroduction of cabled controls" into passenger planes.

Not necessarily calling for the reintroduction of cables into airliners... I'm just saying, there has to be more system redundancy... if it were me piloting the plane - i want more than a wire leading to an electric motor in order to deflect a flight control.

I didnt have any problems hand flying prop-airliners around at 300MPH... and they were cable operated/ non hydraulic boost flight controls.

big difference though between that and a 747 or similar aircraft - but if all electrical goes out i want other options as a pilot than to just ride the thing down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurchi

it is pretty safe to say, that it takes a little bit more than lightning to bring down such a plane.

Boy do i ever know that first hand

once we lost every MFD and Display in the cockpit for a good 20 seconds in hard night IMC - it was an interesting experience

I'll point you to December 8th 1962, Pan Am Boeing 707 - a lightning strike ignited a holding fuel tank and caused the aircraft to explode mid air.

I'll also point out that severe enough turbulence can bring down an aircraft of any size.

d@rk51d3 · 06-02-09, 02:17 AM

What I find strange, is the reports of SMS text messages from people's mobiles, on the plane as it went down...........

If that is the case, shouldn't it be a little closer to shore?

TarJak · 06-02-09, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d@rk51d3

What I find strange, is the reports of SMS text messages from people's mobiles, on the plane as it went down...........

If that is the case, shouldn't it be a little closer to shore?

No the SMS capability is satellite linked so no need to be near a shore transceiver.

d@rk51d3 · 06-02-09, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

No the SMS capability is satellite linked so no need to be near a shore transceiver.

So, your text messages from your mobile are relayed by the plane to satellite? Because your mobile won't do it directly.

TarJak · 06-02-09, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d@rk51d3

So, your text messages from your mobile are relayed by the plane to satellite? Because your mobile won't do it directly.

That's right. The air to ground comms systems used on airliners are used to forward your SMS.

One system in use here in Australia on Qantas domestic flights is AeroMobile: http://www.aeromobile.net/aeromobile.asp

Skybird · 06-02-09, 06:59 AM

No verified information yet, so just some guesses.

1. lightning strike usually is not dagerous for an airplace, since it is pretty much a Faraday-cage and the energy harmlessly dances on the skin and disappears if there is no contact to the ground, you get some scratches in the painting eventually, and that'S it. However, what happens if the plane is struck by two lightnings simultaneously, or a lightening so strong that it travels on and contacts the plane to the ground? Probability says this is a very small chance only. However, it is not impossible.

2. An airliner at FL300 and higher, can soar for around 150-220 km, if all engines fail. That leaves one of the pilots the time to contact ground control.

3. All vital electric systems have 3 and 4 backups. Additional to the engine generators (each engine it's own egnerator), there is the RAM air turbine, and battery. All vital ciorcuits can take over duties from damaged curcuits, the system is designed to be redundant.

I take it as a given that there must have been more happening than just a lightening strike. Whatever happened, it must have happened incredibly fast, leaving the pilots no time to react or to communicate.

So, as often in air desasters, the likely cause of the catastrophe is not a single event, but an unfortunate unfortunate combination of several singluar events, of which each single one probably would have caused no dramatic consequences if happening all alone.

While in theory it is possible, I do not assume that there was a total and complete loss of electricity caused by a normal lightning strike. If it was a lightning strike, than it probably was no "normal" one, but some phenomenon that is extremely rare.

"Software error" I have very high on my list. Or mid-air-destruction by exploding fuel or engine, or explosive cabin depressurization, which still leaves the question of what caused it. My focus is not so much on lightning, but turbulences. Maybe the plane simply lost an airwing that broke away, or the tail, for example. On the other hand the plane was young, and had undergone a routine major maintenance pitstop just weeks ago.

While currently there is being seen a link between the heavy weather zone they were passing, and the accident, this does not rule out that the weather had nothing to do with it - it could have been a bomb, too, so it is too early to rule out terrorism or organised crime.

Doing research at location is difficult, and maybe we will never learn what happened. If the wreck lies too deep in the water, the blackbox maybe will never be found.

XabbaRus · 06-02-09, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d@rk51d3

What I find strange, is the reports of SMS text messages from people's mobiles, on the plane as it went down...........

If that is the case, shouldn't it be a little closer to shore?

Do you have a source for this?

Oberon · 06-02-09, 07:26 AM

http://avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1&opt=0

This has a good overview of information. Things seem to lean towards a catastrophic loss of electrical systems such as ISIS and ADIRU coupled with a depressurisation. In the dark, heavy turbulence, no guidance and depressurisation. It doesn't paint a pretty picture. God rest their souls.

Oberon · 06-02-09, 07:33 AM

FLASH

Brazillian airforce has reportedly discovered traces of metal. Unconfirmed if this is anything to do with the lost flight.

d@rk51d3 · 06-02-09, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Do you have a source for this?

Just the local news (tv and radio). About as unreliable as any. Although I have also read the same on another forum.

d@rk51d3 · 06-02-09, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

That's right. The air to ground comms systems used on airliners are used to forward your SMS.

One system in use here in Australia on Qantas domestic flights is AeroMobile: http://www.aeromobile.net/aeromobile.asp

Thanks for the info and the link.

Oberon · 06-02-09, 07:45 AM

BBC is reporting that the Brazillian media is claiming that their air force have found small scattered metal debris, including, it is reported, seats.
This is also on Reuters.

06-01-09, 07:44 PM	#1
Hartmann Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Grid CH 26, Spain ,Barcelona Posts: 1,857 Downloads: 204 Uploads: 0	Missing plane probably crashed in the Atlantic The jet carrying 228 people from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, that disappeared overnight as it entered an area of strong turbulence probably crashed into the Atlantic Ocean... very sad news http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/am...zil/index.html __________________ But this ship can't sink!... She is made of iron, sir. I assure you, she can. and she will. It is a mathematical certainty. Strength and honor

06-01-09, 09:58 PM	#2
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	i hate to "assume" but the airbus is an electronics heavy vehicle - one lightning strike in the right place and you could lose something critical. i know this is a risk with all aircraft, but at least with cabled controls you can still go hands on all the way down and get something out of her. I know three "bus drivers"... all three hate the airplane and cant wait to be awarded another bid for different equipment. one went so far as to say "you tell the airplane to turn left... the computer thinks about it for a second or two... THEN the airplane responds, its like it has to decide whether or not to allow you to turn that way, its like HAL 9000 or something... 'sorry captain, im afraid i can't do that', whereas other similar aircraft i've flown hands on are more immediate in their responsiveness." almost an exact quote from one of them (something to that extent anyhow) i dont pretend to know the ins and outs of the systems of the airbus, but it seems to me that if it already seems to "approve" pilot inputs and you somehow fry the right part of the computer which manages that particular operation and your just along for the ride at that point. __________________

06-02-09, 06:59 AM	#9
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,635 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	No verified information yet, so just some guesses. 1. lightning strike usually is not dagerous for an airplace, since it is pretty much a Faraday-cage and the energy harmlessly dances on the skin and disappears if there is no contact to the ground, you get some scratches in the painting eventually, and that'S it. However, what happens if the plane is struck by two lightnings simultaneously, or a lightening so strong that it travels on and contacts the plane to the ground? Probability says this is a very small chance only. However, it is not impossible. 2. An airliner at FL300 and higher, can soar for around 150-220 km, if all engines fail. That leaves one of the pilots the time to contact ground control. 3. All vital electric systems have 3 and 4 backups. Additional to the engine generators (each engine it's own egnerator), there is the RAM air turbine, and battery. All vital ciorcuits can take over duties from damaged curcuits, the system is designed to be redundant. I take it as a given that there must have been more happening than just a lightening strike. Whatever happened, it must have happened incredibly fast, leaving the pilots no time to react or to communicate. So, as often in air desasters, the likely cause of the catastrophe is not a single event, but an unfortunate unfortunate combination of several singluar events, of which each single one probably would have caused no dramatic consequences if happening all alone. While in theory it is possible, I do not assume that there was a total and complete loss of electricity caused by a normal lightning strike. If it was a lightning strike, than it probably was no "normal" one, but some phenomenon that is extremely rare. "Software error" I have very high on my list. Or mid-air-destruction by exploding fuel or engine, or explosive cabin depressurization, which still leaves the question of what caused it. My focus is not so much on lightning, but turbulences. Maybe the plane simply lost an airwing that broke away, or the tail, for example. On the other hand the plane was young, and had undergone a routine major maintenance pitstop just weeks ago. While currently there is being seen a link between the heavy weather zone they were passing, and the accident, this does not rule out that the weather had nothing to do with it - it could have been a bomb, too, so it is too early to rule out terrorism or organised crime. Doing research at location is difficult, and maybe we will never learn what happened. If the wreck lies too deep in the water, the blackbox maybe will never be found. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 06-02-09 at 07:10 AM.

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06-02-09, 02:17 AM	#5
d@rk51d3 Sea Lord Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 1,952 Downloads: 207 Uploads: 0	What I find strange, is the reports of SMS text messages from people's mobiles, on the plane as it went down........... If that is the case, shouldn't it be a little closer to shore?

06-02-09, 07:26 AM	#11
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	http://avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1&opt=0 This has a good overview of information. Things seem to lean towards a catastrophic loss of electrical systems such as ISIS and ADIRU coupled with a depressurisation. In the dark, heavy turbulence, no guidance and depressurisation. It doesn't paint a pretty picture. God rest their souls.

06-02-09, 07:33 AM	#12
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	FLASH Brazillian airforce has reportedly discovered traces of metal. Unconfirmed if this is anything to do with the lost flight.

06-02-09, 07:45 AM	#15
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	BBC is reporting that the Brazillian media is claiming that their air force have found small scattered metal debris, including, it is reported, seats. This is also on Reuters.