OLC Supermod + GWX + night surface attack

[Steeltrap]

Hi all

Running latest GWX + OLC mod (not the GUI part, however).

Reading the player guide, I noticed something in the comment on conducting night surface attacks (I like the reduced lighting - more realistic).

There is a comment to the effect that your best means of escape after firing was to dive deep and creep away. I have a few questions about that:

Surely that's indicative of the fact that all is not right? One reason for the crushing effectiveness of u-boat attacks early in the war was the fact that they remained surfaced when leaving, thus maintaining mobility and defeating the only technologically based means the Allies had of detecting them i.e. ASDIC. So an accurate sim would have you firing then fleeing on the surface.

As I've said before, I used NYGM before trying GWX. I had no perception that either was 'better', merely different (and I've not changed that view). When it came to surface attacks, however, NYGM did allow you to approach on the surface, lie stationary in wait around 1km off your targets' tracks, fire, then flee on the surface. Yes, there was a risk from starshells and searchlights. Putting your rudder hard over after firing so as to turn your stern towards likely threats before torps hit, however, then running like hell was usually effective.

At the risk of getting killed for asking it, does anyone know why it is that OLC + GWX should say diving is the better option when history, plus my experiences in NYGM, suggest otherwise? Let me stress I am not trying to start a 'this is better than that' flame war - I am simply trying to understand the difference.

It's also entirely possible I have misunderstood the operation of night sensors in OLC. My impression is that:
- aspect makes a large difference (as it should)
- warships are more likely to spot you than merchants (as they should)
- crew experience of opponents affects their ability to spot you (as it should)
- heavy weather makes you harder to spot (as it should)
- moving at higher speed makes you easier to spot (as it should, but only up to a point/depending on weather)
- I'm not sure what effect the moon state has: is it cosmetic in providing more light, or does that in fact make a difference (as it should)?
With all of this, it's the 'dive after firing' part I am trying to understand, as that seems contrary to my reading on the historical realities of the situation.

Any guidance/comments most welcome. Again, at the risk of belabouring the point, I am asking to gain greater understanding, NOT to suggest this is poor/crap whatever (the achievements of the modders frequently leave me amazed!).

Cheers all!

[nirwana]

Playing GWX and NYGM on a day by day base i noticed that in GWX somehow the escorts seems to pick up the noise of my diesel engines easier in comparable situations. Still be able to stay undetected at 12kts in NYGM escorts in GWX start heading into my direction if i run faster then 7knts.

:hmm: Sometimes i get the impression that escorts in GWX investigate any non-warship sigs which are moving faster then the average speed of the convoy.

[onelifecrisis]

I didn't say it was impossible to escape on the surface, but for me (a DiD player) it's not worth the risk of being caught out by a searchlight. Early war, ASDIC is so bad that escape is a doddle under the waves in GWX. Surface escapes are possible - maybe even probable if you know what you're doing - but if you do get unlucky and you're caught on the surface by a spotlight then you're in very big trouble. That's why I recommended the submerged escape route.

Why don't you try a surface escape and see whether the game models it in a way you like? I doubt any amount of discussion will really answer your question as well as a test.

[onelifecrisis]

Ooops, there's more...

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

It's also entirely possible I have misunderstood the operation of night sensors in OLC. My impression is that:
- aspect makes a large difference (as it should)
- warships are more likely to spot you than merchants (as they should)
- crew experience of opponents affects their ability to spot you (as it should)
- heavy weather makes you harder to spot (as it should)
- moving at higher speed makes you easier to spot (as it should, but only up to a point/depending on weather)
- I'm not sure what effect the moon state has: is it cosmetic in providing more light, or does that in fact make a difference (as it should)?
With all of this, it's the 'dive after firing' part I am trying to understand, as that seems contrary to my reading on the historical realities of the situation.

Yes you've understood correctly, but you seem to have underestimated the effectiveness of searchlights in GWX+OLCU. Or maybe not! I say again: try it and see. And please let me know how you get on! If your surface escape methods work well, I'd love to amend the OLC Players Guide to include your technique.

P.S. There is no moonlight in OLCU. If the moon is out, it just sits there looking pretty. However, night visibility is better on a clear night than it is on a cloudy night (with partial cloud visibility falling somewhere between the two).

[Letum]

It shouldn't make a difference, but using electric torps stops the destroyers going
straight at the place you launched the torps from.

[Steeltrap]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

I didn't say it was impossible to escape on the surface, but for me (a DiD player) it's not worth the risk of being caught out by a searchlight. Early war, ASDIC is so bad that escape is a doddle under the waves in GWX. Surface escapes are possible - maybe even probable if you know what you're doing - but if you do get unlucky and you're caught on the surface by a spotlight then you're in very big trouble. That's why I recommended the submerged escape route.

Why don't you try a surface escape and see whether the game models it in a way you like? I doubt any amount of discussion will really answer your question as well as a test.

Yes, a trial is what I will have once given the chance. I'm only on my 2nd patrol with the new setup and am yet to encounter a convoy - too early in the war, I imagine.

Once I've tried it as I would in NYGM, I'll report the results (I'm hoping the only lifeboats will be theirs......).

Thanks for the reply.

Cheers

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

(I'm hoping the only lifeboats will be theirs......).

Good luck! I'm looking forward to hearing about it...

[wdq4587]

I 've heared from someone (I guess a expert) that diesel engine sound in surface is not easy being heared by other surface ship hydrophone. For the wave disturb the sound transfer. But I still don't know the diesel engine sound of u-boat can be heared by a watcher or not in 1km distance.

BTW, I guess if you attack in long distance, for example more than 2km and shot 4 torpedos quickly. You may got enough time to escape in surface. If you shoot in short distance, you do not have enough time to run away in surface. And in NYGM I always been located by DD search pattern by ping when I escape submerged slowly.

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by nirwana

Playing GWX and NYGM on a day by day base i noticed that in GWX somehow the escorts seems to pick up the noise of my diesel engines easier in comparable situations. Still be able to stay undetected at 12kts in NYGM escorts in GWX start heading into my direction if i run faster then 7knts.

:hmm: Sometimes i get the impression that escorts in GWX investigate any non-warship sigs which are moving faster then the average speed of the convoy.

Originally Posted by nirwana

I 've heared from someone (I guess a expert) that diesel engine sound in surface is not easy being heared by other surface ship hydrophone. For the wave disturb the sound transfer. But I still don't know the diesel engine sound of u-boat can be heared by a watcher or not in 1km distance.

Enemy hydrophones cannot detect you when you're surfaced in GWX.
Nor can the enemy watch crew's "hear" you.
However more speed does make you more visible to enemy visual sensors when you're on the surface. This is because more speed means more bow spray and more wake, and the spray can be spotted by the watch crews, and the wake can be spotted by aircraft.

[Steeltrap]

I have always concluded that the single biggest reason for the failure of the u-boat campaign was the continued advances in Allied radar.

Why? Because that forced u-boats below the surface. Once there, they lost their ability to manoeuver in any meaningful sense. This brought a number of factors into play:

- endurance: you will eventually run out of air/battery power.
- ASDIC: the ability to remain undetected while submerged was reduced with each improvement in ASDIC. Ultimately, they knew your bearing, distance and depth.
- ASW weapons: hedgehog, squid etc. means they don't even need to get to you. With the improved positional fixes from improved ASDIC, you're toast. Add the Mk24 mine (really a homing torpedo, introduced after the technical glitches were sorted) and it's not even fair.

So, the corollary of this is that success is achieved through remaining on the surface so long as is feasible. That was the experience of the most successful commanders. Once you dive, you give the initiative to the enemy and surrender many of your options - never a good strategy!!

I shall see how far I can carry that idea......

[Steeltrap]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

However more speed does make you more visible to enemy visual sensors when you're on the surface. This is because more speed means more bow spray and more wake, and the spray can be spotted by the watch crews, and the wake can be spotted by aircraft.

That should be heavily influenced by the sea-state: spotting any ship at sea from the air in heavey weather is very difficult, let alone one as small and close to the surface as a u-boat. The wake is largely visible due to its contrast with the surrounds: the human eye is most sensitive to movement and 'difference'. When the sea is calm, a wake is like a line on a blank piece of paper. When the sea is whipped up, especially if whitecaps and rain, that same line is drawn across a piece of paper covered in lines/scribbling: you might see it, but it is immensely more difficult to do so. Also, it's hard to appreciate just how small something like a u-boat is when viewed at sea from any sort of altitude (bear in mind the Brits confused the Sheffield with the Bismarck - something you'd not do from sea level!!).

Cheers

[wdq4587]

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

- ASDIC: the ability to remain undetected while submerged was reduced with each improvement in ASDIC. Ultimately, they knew your bearing, distance and depth.

From my very little Destroyer Commander experience. It seems ASDIC sensor can not know your depth. Although a experienced commander can estimate your depth by continuous ping and check the distance change while approaching you. And the blind area in front also has relation with target depth.

[tomfon]

Originally Posted by wdq4587

It seems ASDIC sensor can not know your depth.

I doubt that.
Anyway, if it can estimate the distance
then the depth can be calculated.

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

[spray/wake visibility] should be heavily influenced by the sea-state...

This is where my knowledge gets hazy. The complexity of visual sensors in SH3 ultimately defeated me and I abandoned my "quest" to understand them completely. I know that weather is one variable which has an effect, but whether or not it negates the speed variable I can't say for sure.

I'm reasonably certain, though, that neither GWX nor NYGM could alter whether or not it does. Modders can change how pronounced the effect of each variable is, but AFAIK the releationships between the variables are hardcoded.

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by tomfon

I doubt that...

Me too.