Renown vs. Reality

[mangaroca]

Hi,

Last time when I was going through the Campaign I missed the type XXI in 1945 by less than one hundred points...
Some may say I could have just loaded a previous save game and sink one merchant more; others may say I was simply not good enough...
However, I put realism and "fair play" over score and although I'm sure I could still improve my skills I don't consider myself to be a poor Kaleun.
But getting to the point... I was wondering if the Renown are something that really existed - a table of scores on Doenitz's desk that was rating a Captain not only by the tonnage he had sent to the bottom but also by other aspects, such as e.g.: the number of days he had spent at the sea, the regions he had patrolled, the fire/hit ratio etc.; or are the Renown simply the game's invention, something to keep us away from the "goodies" (although we all get them as soon as they are available)?

If the latter is true, how many of you don't pay attention to the Renown and use some sort of a cheat to switch them off? Is switching them off at all possible??

Again, if the Renown never existed, what was the major factor making one Kaleun get his XXI, VII/41 or whatever else he was after during the WWII???

Thanks!

[GoldenRivet]

im thinking the prestige of a kaleun was more or less based upon tonnage results more than anything else.

as far as upgrading the boat, after the first patrol, i upgrade hydrophones - thats it -

Of course i add a radar detector when it becomes available, but i will typically leave the conning tower and the rest of the boat the way it is from day one.

think of it this way... a u-boat is NOT an anti aircraft platform. some guys might be able to pull it off in stock SH3, but for the most part any one of the GWX series will eat your lunch and run off with your girlfriend if you dare go up against planes. :rotfl:

therfore i have come to the conclusion that any flak upgrades are a waste of renown as my strategy is to dive and evade aircraft at all cost.

lets explore further; the basic reason for upgrading the conning tower is more or less to fit more flak guns on your boat... there is another waste of renown.

you could argue that longer lasting batteries are important, and i think that they are, there is another essential upgrade that i'll take.

Radar detector of course... but Radar, not a chance.

I found early on that i actually use radar so rarely in my operations that it is essentially OFF a majority of the time. save your renown and skip the radar. it will only serve as a beacon steadily broadcasting your position with every sweep.

Bold is essential, ill take bold upgrades when i can get them.

Basically any upgrade that increases the survivabilitty of my boat and crew.

so to summarize:

On day one dont upgrade anything
after patrol one upgrade hydrophones only (this reduces blind spots)
almost never upgrade the conning tower
almost never upgrade flak no matter how mean it makes the boat look
radar detector - YES
radar - NO

as the war goes on you must be wise in your investment of renown in your boat, dont waste it on anything you wont be using regularly.

[Uncle Goose]

There wasn't really a renown system back then. Much depended on the success of a kaleun and of course how much he was liked as many decisions were made by naval high command. Most updates on the boats came automatically but it could take some time depending on the speed of the shipyards and available material. Transfers to another type was mostly done by request to the high command and approval depended whether a certain type of sub was available for delivery and if there was somebody available to take over the previous sub.

[mangaroca]

Thanks for your answers guys! Now, where can I find a trainer that would "tweak" my Renown???

[melnibonian]

Originally Posted by mangaroca

Thanks for your answers guys! Now, where can I find a trainer that would "tweak" my Renown???

You have two options. You can click on the link under my signature and get a year based renown that increases each year or you can just go to the Cfg files of the ships and edit the values you like.

[SmokinTep]

Conning tower and flak gun upgrades are a waste of renown..........

[STEED]

Originally Posted by melnibonian

You have two options. You can click on the link under my signature and get a year based renown that increases each year or you can just go to the Cfg files of the ships and edit the values you like.

I got 999999.999999 in Sept39.

The renown system is BS and that is a fact. Do what I do, throw the dice and make up your own. My own system has gone against me twice now when I wanted upgrades as the bloody French resistants blew up the Train with what I need.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by melnibonian

You have two options. You can click on the link under my signature and get a year based renown that increases each year or you can just go to the Cfg files of the ships and edit the values you like.

You actually have a third option....go to:

C:\Documents and Settings\Jim\My Documents\SH3\data\cfg\Careers\the name of your patrol........then open up the Patrols_0 CFG and adjust the delta renown to any value you desire (but only at the end of a patrol when you are in port)

[Sailor Steve]

Sorry; I argued with Steed (because it's so much fun) but I didn't address your question directly.

Originally Posted by mangaroca

But getting to the point... I was wondering if the Renown are something that really existed - a table of scores on Doenitz's desk that was rating a Captain not only by the tonnage he had sent to the bottom but also by other aspects, such as e.g.: the number of days he had spent at the sea, the regions he had patrolled, the fire/hit ratio etc.; or are the Renown simply the game's invention, something to keep us away from the "goodies" (although we all get them as soon as they are available)?

Everybody's least favorite answer: Yes and No. No, there was no points record that governed executive decisions. Yes, commanders then and now keep an eye on their men. Fitness reports, patrol records and yes, tonnage scores, all influenced the commanding officers' choices. Not only how well the captain did, but how his fellow officers percieved him. That last one is tough, because captains who were disliked by their men could sometimes still get ahead if they got the job done. A very good example of this is Herman Wouk's The Caine Mutiny (not the movie, though it is one of my favorites, but the book, which follows up on the careers of the main characters in the aftermath of the court-martial). Sometimes doing the right thing will get you into more trouble than just going along with the flow.

If the latter is true, how many of you don't pay attention to the Renown and use some sort of a cheat to switch them off? Is switching them off at all possible??

It's very possible. NYGM shuts the renown off altogether and uses straight tonnage scores. Also you can change renown awarded for various tasks.

Again, if the Renown never existed, what was the major factor making one Kaleun get his XXI, VII/41 or whatever else he was after during the WWII???

The major factor in real life was actually renown, just not like it is in the game. I think game renown would work perfectly if it was hidden, i.e. you don't know how much you have or how much you need; you only know that every now and then you get offered stuff.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Sorry; I argued with Steed (because it's so much fun)

I like that man give him a medal.

And a hot drink of Steve's choice.


STEVE IS SO

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The major factor in real life was actually renown, just not like it is in the game. I think game renown would work perfectly if it was hidden, i.e. you don't know how much you have or how much you need; you only know that every now and then you get offered stuff.

While all the above mentioned (and previous posts) facts are true, there is one aspect (albeit grim) that would have been taken into consideration. In the late years of the war if you had a Kaleun that had successfully completed 10 or 12 patrols with decent tonnage and stayed alive that alone was a indication of either skill or incredible luck. With the fatality rate of sailors being 75% someone that could reliably still complete their patrols would be a prime candidate as well.

One aspect that's always made me scratch my head is why theh VIIC/41's didn't enter service earlier; they were physically available mid 1943. I can see how extended training on the XXI's would've been needed as they were so different, but for the VIIC/41's the time from physical availabilty and training to combat patrol readiness has always felt like it was way too long.

[Ducimus]

I think anyone whos spent a lenght of time in the military can tell you that the renown system is a pretty good simulation of how the military works, in and of itself.


Logistics are what they are, good or bad. Supplies will be limited. Who gets first dibbs on the supplies? Ive often heard the phrase, "It's not who you know, it's who you ....... <AHEM> .. anyway, thats the raw blunt picture.

Simple fact of the matter is, not everyone, had access to everything. I think it was probably just as true for the Germans in WW2, as it is for US serviceman in the modern age. Some units just had priority over the others, simple fact. A unit i was in once, was considered a priority unit. What the unit commander asked for, he got. Why? Mission presidence, and simply put, our unit was Renown for being hard chargers. We went it, kicked ass, got the job done, and everybody knew it. WIthout exaggeration, Town patrol on more then a couple occasions cut me some slack, simply because of what unit i was in. Again... RENOWN.

Then theres the ugly truth, of the "good ole boy system". If supplies are limited, the personal in charge of supplies, arent going to let loose the choice bits to just anybody. You may have to do them a favor or he may have to owe you a favor before they remember, "oh yeah, we got one of those". Again, renown (or "Brownie points" as it's sometimes called ) Or in the case of some units, if they have a reputation, what they ask for, they get. Even if they have to haul it in special delivery. If the unit didnt have the clout to pull those strings, they woudln't get the item in question. (somebody else would )

[Tessa]

Some good points there, made me think of another aspect that factored largely in your ability to get what you want/need - Heroism & Propoganda. In all branches, soldiers that were experts at what they did (like Prien, Kretschmer, Rommel, Erich Hartmann (Luftwaffe, 355 kills)) had their exploits and heroic actions broadcast throughout Germany. Besides being an exceptional military soldier, they were an asset to the country as a symbol of the glory of the Fatherland as well as being great military leaders.

Had Prien, Kretschmer or Shubert remained in the Kriegsmarine for the duration of the war I doubt they'd of had little problems getting a VIIC/41 almost right out of the shipyard as it was completed, or been chosen to be commanders for the first XXI boats. As the game can't objectively evaluate your patrol, the renown system was pretty well thought out as both the measure of your rank, commendations, and ability to purchase new equip as soon as it became available.

[the.terrabyte.pirate]

See, I always liked the fact that you earned renown for not only sinking ships, but also for reaching and patrolling your assigned grid.

I figured that although sinking ships was the primary objective, and a good tonnage patrol would forgive almost any sin, a captain that constantly disobeyed orders and went waltzing through the atlantic at a whim looking for ships to sink would not be rewarded in the long term.

From what I understand, the German armed forces tended to be... disciplined.

I'd like to have the patrol grid renown returned. It's a simulator after all, and that includes simulating following orders from your commanders. The way I figure is that even if you're sailing at 100% realism, manual targetting and all, unless you're travelling to, reaching, and patrolling your assigned grid for 24 hours, then you're not truly simulating a uboat patrol. You can always go tonnage hunting afterwards with BDU's blessing.

Feel free to disagree, but you know I'm right.

[edit] Oh, and before anyone gets haughty, I know why the renown for reaching the patrol grid was removed. But I still think that it was a reasonable feature to keep, or at least leave as optional. It saves having to edit the config files.

btw, does anyone remember how much renown was given in stock shiii for reaching and patrolling your assigned grid? I've forgotten.