Some thoughts from one of the mainstream

boadle · 04-27-07, 05:59 AM

On a regular basis, I pick up the latest 'hardcore' sim from Game, and plan to invest several months in it, and immerse myself in the atmosphere, knowing that this is 'as real as it gets'.

I've picked up all three previous versions of SH with this intention, as well as MS Flight Simulator et al.

However, my good intentions often fall away after a few hours, and I revert to World War II Online, or Stalker, or even BF 2. The reason for this is generally what I perceive as a lack of 'humanity'. With SH, The technical stuff is great, and the sense of poring over nautical maps, and the radio stuff, and the attention to detail; all highly commendable, and I know your current 'hardcore' audience lap this stuff up.

My issue with SH 1 - 4, and the major stumbling block to 'mainstream' gamers, I feel, whose only real exposure to Submarine fare is The Hunt for Red October, Das Boot etc, is the lack of human interest.

The modelled characters go some way to addressing this, and were badly needed, but the game is crying out for enemy sailors abandoning ship, clambering into life jackets, drowning in their metal coffins. I need to see the effect of my aggression on real people, and I need to see the effect of my enemies, on my crew. I need to see men scambling around my boat, putting out fires, scalded by jets of steam, even bringing me cups of coffee and telling me how much they miss their girl back home.

Why can't I walk around my boat? Maybe the next iteration should be fully First Person?

We want to feel like we are Sean Connery, not just some trigonometry machine.

I work in the games industry (Free Radical - boy, have we got some crackers in the works for FPS fans), so I am aware of the cost (in financial, and human resource terms) of character modelling, rigging and texturing, of motion capture sessions and voice acting. However, I feel that in order to capture the elusive mainstream, SH and the ilk need to address this aspect.

Other that this, your game looks great. Congrats.

joea · 04-27-07, 06:04 AM

Well that's not really the crowd at this forum. Those are 2 very different markets you're talking about here.

AirborneTD · 04-27-07, 06:11 AM

SH4 has made some advances in these areas. There are lifeboats and crews on decks of ships. I would like to see more movement inside my sub and to have freedom to move in different compartments. I really enjoy this sim for what it is--with the modders help of course.

boadle · 04-27-07, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

Well that's not really the crowd at this forum. Those are 2 very different markets you're talking about here.

My impression, Joea, is that the developers of SH4 are trying to position their product to move at least somewhat into the mainstream.

maerean_m · 04-27-07, 06:21 AM

Quote:

sailors abandoning ship, clambering into life jackets, drowning in their metal coffins. I need to see the effect of my aggression on real people, and I need to see the effect of my enemies, on my crew. I need to see men scambling around my boat, putting out fires, scalded by jets of steam, even bringing me cups of coffee and telling me how much they miss their girl back home.

The game is not allowed to let you see the full effect of your aggression because the ESRB and PEGI ratings that won't allow the people to buy the game, not even those that bought it now.

In the beta stage there were people blown away by explosions and people drowning in the water, but they all had to be removed.

pasharr · 04-27-07, 06:24 AM

Boadle you little sneak! Gettin onto here! IF you have SH3 you should invest some time in the GWX mod. It brings that game to life. I expect the same will happen for SH4 eventually.

boadle · 04-27-07, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maerean_m

The game is not allowed to let you see the full effect of your aggression because the ESRB and PEGI ratings that won't allow the people to buy the game, not even those that bought it now.

In the beta stage there were people blown away by explosions and people drowning in the water, but they all had to be removed.

Wow. What a shame. Bizarre that the respectives committees see a respectful simulation more harmful than 'Bully' or 'Manhunt'. I suspect that the boards warned the developers that the rating would need to change to include these features, and the developers weren't prepared to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pasharr

Boadle you little sneak! Gettin onto here! IF you have SH3 you should invest some time in the GWX mod. It brings that game to life. I expect the same will happen for SH4 eventually

Um hi? Have we met? Had a look at the GWX mod. Looks pretty cool. Love the dolphins. Will check it out.

mookiemookie · 04-27-07, 07:26 AM

I'd rather they invested their time in gameplay and simulation aspects rather than crewmen bringing me coffee, which may be cute to see once or twice but would become annoying after a while. With limited time and budget constraints, I'm thinking that they should focus on the more important parts of the sim.

But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

TDK1044 · 04-27-07, 07:49 AM

I think the poster makes a good point regarding the human element. Each new version of the Silent Hunter series has improved on the previous version in some form, but they all have the same gramatical approach. I think it's that grammar that needs to change if we are to get a Silent Hunter 5 that really excites us.

Everyone here wants to feel like they are the Captain of a submarine in a WWII movie, but the Designers need to make gramatical changes in order to bring that feeling home.

In Silent Hunter 4, the crew interaction with the Captain is really limited to confirming and carrying out an order. I think you need a Captain's cabin so that you can be interrupted or woken from your sleep by a crewmember informing you that a convoy has been spotted, or that the sub has encountered an unexpected technical failure that needs your attention.

You need to feel like you are actually on your sub, and right now you don't. You feel like you control everything that happens on the sub, but you don't feel that you're actually there with the crew. That's what needs to change.

The reality is though that what I'm describing is a three year project with a totally new game engine. It's never going to happen......I can dream though.

boadle · 04-27-07, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDK1044

I think the poster makes a good point regarding the human element. Each new version of the Silent Hunter series has improved on the previous version in some form, but they all have the same gramatical approach. I think it's that grammar that needs to change if we are to get a Silent Hunter 5 that really excites us.

Everyone here wants to feel like they are the Captain of a submarine in a WWII movie, but the Designers need to make gramatical changes in order to bring that feeling home.

In Silent Hunter 4, the crew interaction with the Captain is really limited to confirming and carrying out an order. I think you need a Captain's cabin so that you can be interrupted or woken from your sleep by a crewmember informing you that a convoy has been spotted, or that the sub has encountered an unexpected technical failure that needs your attention.

You need to feel like you are actually on your sub, and right now you don't. You feel like you control everything that happens on the sub, but you don't feel that you're actually there with the crew. That's what needs to change.

The reality is though that what I'm describing is a three year project with a totally new game engine. It's never going to happen......I can dream though.

Nicely put 'poster'

. Agree 100%.

pasharr · 04-27-07, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Um hi? Have we met?

Yeh I work with you! lol!

SteamWake · 04-27-07, 08:11 AM

The "Sims" meet the simulator :hmm:

Snuffy · 04-27-07, 08:14 AM

Last night, I took out a mine sweeper while surfaced and only a couple 100 yards from the boat. I used the scope on the deck gun and could see the enemy sailors on the boat as they did their thing, using their weapons against me, running from one end to the other end of the boat, as well as watching two of them fall down dead from a shot I put between them.

I think it gets real, you just have to be at the right location at the right time. Of course having a higher end machine graphics wise will probably help in this too. (I run a pair of 7600GS with 256megs each in SLI configuration.)

Chock · 04-27-07, 08:16 AM

The first time I fired up SH4 and saw the people moving about on the ship I subsequently torpedoed, I found it a genuinely unsettling experience, so I can well understand the removal of features that focused on the nastier aspects of torpedoing a merchant ship.

Occasionally the game/sim allows this kind of thing to slip through, I have seen it once in SH4, where a Japanese gunner collasped to the deck in his gun turret as it was engulfed in flames, it was only for a split second, as the programme then deleted all the crew off the destroyed ship, but nevertheless it was there briefly, and a nasty thing it was too.

It is often quoted in war biographies that men in combat found it easier to cope with this aspect of war by concentrating on shooting down 'a machine' or sinking 'a ship' as opposed to trying to kill a pilot, or wipe out a crew. And I find that this is the way I'd also like to deal with it in a simulation too. For me the interest in simulations lies in the challenge of getting a skilled deflection shot on a Spitfire or Messerschmitt, or carefully stalking a ship and getting your solution correct, that and the chance to try out the things you read about in history books and autobiographies. That is what I want to simulate, not forcing someone to drown or be burned alive, and I suspect that no-one, other than a very sick individual, would really want to see that kind of thing in a simulation.

War is a very nasty thing, but it is also an object of fascination for people, as we see the very best and worst that men and women can do displayed in it. I prefer to study the skill in it, rather than the results of it, which are best left unsimulated, as there is enough of it in the real world to go around.

More crew interaction however, I personally think would be very cool, and I'm in agreement that it would be very nice to be able to 'walk around' a fully realised submarine interior, actually pressing and pulling all the knobs and switches and having them do things. But as you say, that would be a hell of an undertaking to attempt in any truly realistic form. Nevertheless, it would at least concentrate on the less gruesome aspects of war, although unfortunately, they tend to be the boring bits too when it comes to making a game.

Having said all that, here is something you might want to try: Despite the obvious bonus of eye candy that SH4 offers, try a mission or campaign with external view disabled (yes I know it will be a wrench). What you'll find is that it makes the game a very different and vastly more believable undertaking, as the sense of claustrophobia and isolation is heightened. This of course is bordering on making your game slightly more uncomfortable as an experience, but it does add a very human element to things.

On the whole, I think the original poster makes a good point, but as I say, I think some things are best left out of a war game

tater · 04-27-07, 08:20 AM

Actually, as more of a sim guy I mostly agree with the boadle. Oddly, I think some of the "100% realism" optons are less real. The TDC is something run by a TDC operator in the attack party, for example. As skipper I should understand, evnen check it maybe, but I'd rather have a more interactive crew to increase immerson.

For me, proper outcomes are required for immersion, but so are the details of interacting with the crew.

04-27-07, 05:59 AM	#1
boadle Swabbie Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 7 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Some thoughts from one of the mainstream On a regular basis, I pick up the latest 'hardcore' sim from Game, and plan to invest several months in it, and immerse myself in the atmosphere, knowing that this is 'as real as it gets'. I've picked up all three previous versions of SH with this intention, as well as MS Flight Simulator et al. However, my good intentions often fall away after a few hours, and I revert to World War II Online, or Stalker, or even BF 2. The reason for this is generally what I perceive as a lack of 'humanity'. With SH, The technical stuff is great, and the sense of poring over nautical maps, and the radio stuff, and the attention to detail; all highly commendable, and I know your current 'hardcore' audience lap this stuff up. My issue with SH 1 - 4, and the major stumbling block to 'mainstream' gamers, I feel, whose only real exposure to Submarine fare is The Hunt for Red October, Das Boot etc, is the lack of human interest. The modelled characters go some way to addressing this, and were badly needed, but the game is crying out for enemy sailors abandoning ship, clambering into life jackets, drowning in their metal coffins. I need to see the effect of my aggression on real people, and I need to see the effect of my enemies, on my crew. I need to see men scambling around my boat, putting out fires, scalded by jets of steam, even bringing me cups of coffee and telling me how much they miss their girl back home. Why can't I walk around my boat? Maybe the next iteration should be fully First Person? We want to feel like we are Sean Connery, not just some trigonometry machine. I work in the games industry (Free Radical - boy, have we got some crackers in the works for FPS fans), so I am aware of the cost (in financial, and human resource terms) of character modelling, rigging and texturing, of motion capture sessions and voice acting. However, I feel that in order to capture the elusive mainstream, SH and the ilk need to address this aspect. Other that this, your game looks great. Congrats.

04-27-07, 06:11 AM	#3
AirborneTD Engineer Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 204 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	SH4 has made some advances in these areas. There are lifeboats and crews on decks of ships. I would like to see more movement inside my sub and to have freedom to move in different compartments. I really enjoy this sim for what it is--with the modders help of course. __________________ "You know, you might get surrounded." "We're paratroopers, Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded." --Band of Brothers

04-27-07, 07:26 AM	#8
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	I'd rather they invested their time in gameplay and simulation aspects rather than crewmen bringing me coffee, which may be cute to see once or twice but would become annoying after a while. With limited time and budget constraints, I'm thinking that they should focus on the more important parts of the sim. But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong. __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

04-27-07, 08:14 AM	#13
Snuffy XO Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 420 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Last night, I took out a mine sweeper while surfaced and only a couple 100 yards from the boat. I used the scope on the deck gun and could see the enemy sailors on the boat as they did their thing, using their weapons against me, running from one end to the other end of the boat, as well as watching two of them fall down dead from a shot I put between them. I think it gets real, you just have to be at the right location at the right time. Of course having a higher end machine graphics wise will probably help in this too. (I run a pair of 7600GS with 256megs each in SLI configuration.) __________________ ----------------- Snuffy!

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04-27-07, 06:04 AM	#2
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Well that's not really the crowd at this forum. Those are 2 very different markets you're talking about here.

04-27-07, 06:24 AM	#6
pasharr Swabbie Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 12 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	Boadle you little sneak! Gettin onto here! IF you have SH3 you should invest some time in the GWX mod. It brings that game to life. I expect the same will happen for SH4 eventually.

04-27-07, 07:49 AM	#9
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	I think the poster makes a good point regarding the human element. Each new version of the Silent Hunter series has improved on the previous version in some form, but they all have the same gramatical approach. I think it's that grammar that needs to change if we are to get a Silent Hunter 5 that really excites us. Everyone here wants to feel like they are the Captain of a submarine in a WWII movie, but the Designers need to make gramatical changes in order to bring that feeling home. In Silent Hunter 4, the crew interaction with the Captain is really limited to confirming and carrying out an order. I think you need a Captain's cabin so that you can be interrupted or woken from your sleep by a crewmember informing you that a convoy has been spotted, or that the sub has encountered an unexpected technical failure that needs your attention. You need to feel like you are actually on your sub, and right now you don't. You feel like you control everything that happens on the sub, but you don't feel that you're actually there with the crew. That's what needs to change. The reality is though that what I'm describing is a three year project with a totally new game engine. It's never going to happen......I can dream though.

04-27-07, 08:11 AM	#12
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	The "Sims" meet the simulator :hmm:

04-27-07, 08:16 AM	#14
Chock Sea Lord Join Date: May 2005 Location: Under a thermal layer in chilly Olde England Posts: 1,842 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The first time I fired up SH4 and saw the people moving about on the ship I subsequently torpedoed, I found it a genuinely unsettling experience, so I can well understand the removal of features that focused on the nastier aspects of torpedoing a merchant ship. Occasionally the game/sim allows this kind of thing to slip through, I have seen it once in SH4, where a Japanese gunner collasped to the deck in his gun turret as it was engulfed in flames, it was only for a split second, as the programme then deleted all the crew off the destroyed ship, but nevertheless it was there briefly, and a nasty thing it was too. It is often quoted in war biographies that men in combat found it easier to cope with this aspect of war by concentrating on shooting down 'a machine' or sinking 'a ship' as opposed to trying to kill a pilot, or wipe out a crew. And I find that this is the way I'd also like to deal with it in a simulation too. For me the interest in simulations lies in the challenge of getting a skilled deflection shot on a Spitfire or Messerschmitt, or carefully stalking a ship and getting your solution correct, that and the chance to try out the things you read about in history books and autobiographies. That is what I want to simulate, not forcing someone to drown or be burned alive, and I suspect that no-one, other than a very sick individual, would really want to see that kind of thing in a simulation. War is a very nasty thing, but it is also an object of fascination for people, as we see the very best and worst that men and women can do displayed in it. I prefer to study the skill in it, rather than the results of it, which are best left unsimulated, as there is enough of it in the real world to go around. More crew interaction however, I personally think would be very cool, and I'm in agreement that it would be very nice to be able to 'walk around' a fully realised submarine interior, actually pressing and pulling all the knobs and switches and having them do things. But as you say, that would be a hell of an undertaking to attempt in any truly realistic form. Nevertheless, it would at least concentrate on the less gruesome aspects of war, although unfortunately, they tend to be the boring bits too when it comes to making a game. Having said all that, here is something you might want to try: Despite the obvious bonus of eye candy that SH4 offers, try a mission or campaign with external view disabled (yes I know it will be a wrench). What you'll find is that it makes the game a very different and vastly more believable undertaking, as the sense of claustrophobia and isolation is heightened. This of course is bordering on making your game slightly more uncomfortable as an experience, but it does add a very human element to things. On the whole, I think the original poster makes a good point, but as I say, I think some things are best left out of a war game

04-27-07, 08:20 AM	#15
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Actually, as more of a sim guy I mostly agree with the boadle. Oddly, I think some of the "100% realism" optons are less real. The TDC is something run by a TDC operator in the attack party, for example. As skipper I should understand, evnen check it maybe, but I'd rather have a more interactive crew to increase immerson. For me, proper outcomes are required for immersion, but so are the details of interacting with the crew.