TDC vs Position Keeper discussion

[XLjedi]

If I can even call it TDC ops... more like PK ops.

That stupid Position Keeper is totally taking me out of this game.

Am I wrong, or is there absolutly no way to aim a torpedo in this game using the TBT or scope crosshair to point at spots on a target? If you're not aware, after setting AoB in this game the scope has no aiming purpose.

It's like the scope and the PK are happily existing in their own seperate worlds. Someone please tell me there's some way to get my bearings into the TDC without the PK standing in my way.

Are you tellin me US sub captains couldn't use the scope to transmit 0 speed lookdown shootdown solutions to the TDC?

Don't bother to mention Neal's movie. I saw it, it just irritates me... we shouldn't have to play the game like this.

In SH3 I only needed one solution to sink an entire convoy, in this game you need a different solution for every targetted spot on the ship.

Now I guess I know why Dic O'Kane had his TDC operator holding the bearing constant while he held the scope steady and fired at different points on the ships as they passed the wire.

Right now, I think the only way I could even attempt to mimic Dic O'Kane would be to create an exact solution for just in front of the bow of the ship, allow the PK to track it to some point, set the TDC dial to 0 speed but don't transmit to the PK, let PK continue to track... Then when I'm ready to fire, fire 1, transmit 0 speed to PK, wait 2 seconds, fire2, wait 2 seconds fire3, and so forth. Setting speed to zero like that is the only way I can figure out how to tell my TDC guy to hold the bearing constant.

While I'm here, might as well ask... How do you make more than one tube ready to fire (open the tube doors) I only seem to be able to open em one-by-one?

[joea]

Look at the mods section for a fix for the torpedo doors.

Ok, sorry but TDC worked like that in real life. The scope and TBT were used to read the initial bearing but not directly linked to the TDC. In fact the scope was not linked to the TDC in u-boats either so SH3 has it wrong.

[mookiemookie]

The PK targets the "locked on" portion of the ship. To aim for certain parts of it, use the degree offset dial. For instance, if the periscope locks on the center stack of the ship, and you want to put a shot right under the bridge, unlock your periscope, move it over to where you want your torpedo to hit and note the change in bearing from the original "locked on" position. The degree change is the offset you use.

As joea mentioned, this is the way the TDC worked in real life.

[AVGWarhawk]

The TDC works fine. I find more of a problem solver than anything. I can see where my calculations are off and I can then reset. My biggest obstacle is the speed calculations. I can determine this somewhat easily by watching the AOB dial. If it is change radically as compared to the vessel on the scope, the I know it is off. As far as convoys, once you speed is set and AOB, you just need to get the distance for the next ship you are going after. Update the TDC and your good to go. Not as slick as the German version, but it works.

Sounds like you have read up on the submarines, you probably noticed that they constantly popped up the scope getting bearings and speed. They did this all the way up to the point of firing. In reality, if you get the PK dead on, you can fire your torpedoes with scope down (many keep it up so as to see the torpedo at work).

You can also just point and shoot if you want. Leave the TDC off! Don't give up, it works!

[XLjedi]

First off, thanks to all for the feedback, since I'm still searching for my "zone" with this targeting gizmo I'm glad for any and all feedback/suggestions.

AVGWarhawk first... I need to followup with you on a couple of your comments.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

The TDC works fine. I find more of a problem solver than anything. I can see where my calculations are off and I can then reset. My biggest obstacle is the speed calculations. I can determine this somewhat easily by watching the AOB dial. If it is change radically as compared to the vessel on the scope, the I know it is off. As far as convoys, once you speed is set and AOB, you just need to get the distance for the next ship you are going after. Update the TDC and your good to go. Not as slick as the German version, but it works.

When you say you can "see where your calculations are off", is that because you're checking the solution on the attack map vs. a map update plot? ...or are you sayin, you just tell from the attack map solution whether or not it looks right.

As for your comments on convoy solutions, if I understand the thing correctly, you need more than distance, you'd need a new AoB as well... If you had a lead target and just changed the distance for another in tandem, your solution will pass well ahead of the second target, unless you update AoB. Again, the scope does not functioning as an aiming device.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Sounds like you have read up on the submarines, you probably noticed that they constantly popped up the scope getting bearings and speed. They did this all the way up to the point of firing. In reality, if you get the PK dead on, you can fire your torpedoes with scope down (many keep it up so as to see the torpedo at work).

You can also just point and shoot if you want. Leave the TDC off! Don't give up, it works!

Yes, I've read many books on fleetboats and uboats, history, tactics and so forth...

By leave the TDC off, do you mean never send a value to the PK? ...or are you sayin as long as I toggle off the red light on the PK it defaults back to point and shoot? cuz I don't think it does, I've tried it. I've fired fish with the PK disengaged and scope on a zero bearing and watched three or more fish all take 90° turns toward a supposedly disengaged PK solution.

Yeah, they popped up, took extremely brief peeks and kept on the attack submerged. I actually thought I'd really like that and attempted an interesting tactic to exploit such features. I came up immediately astern of a target, matched it's speed, got the distance, bearing 0°, AoB was a no brainer 180°, then I submerged with the PK tracking. I was planning a submerged end around, and I briefly popped the scope up to check the target vs. PK. Was working GREAT until I got about 20° ahead of the target, at which time the PK just disengaged...

I'm gonna keep searching for how best to exploit the thing. I'll stick with it, just right now I'm fightin against it more than anything.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

First off, thanks to all for the feedback, since I'm still searching for my "zone" with this targeting gizmo I'm glad for any and all feedback/suggestions.

AVGWarhawk first... I need to followup with you on a couple of your comments.

When you say you can "see where your calculations are off", is that because you're checking the solution on the attack map vs. a map update plot? ...or are you sayin, you just tell from the attack map solution whether or not it looks right.

As for your comments on convoy solutions, if I understand the thing correctly, you need more than distance, you'd need a new AoB as well... If you had a lead target and just changed the distance for another in tandem, your solution will pass well ahead of the second target, unless you update AoB. Again, the scope does not functioning as an aiming device.

Yes, I've read many books on fleetboats and uboats, history, tactics and so forth...

By leave the TDC off, do you mean never send a value to the PK? ...or are you sayin as long as I toggle off the red light on the PK it defaults back to point and shoot? cuz I don't think it does, I've tried it. I've fired fish with the PK disengaged and scope on a zero bearing and watched three or more fish all take 90° turns toward a supposedly disengaged PK solution.

Yeah, they popped up, took extremely brief peeks and kept on the attack submerged. I actually thought I'd really like that and attempted an interesting tactic to exploit such features. I came up immediately astern of a target, matched it's speed, got the distance, bearing 0°, AoB was a no brainer 180°, then I submerged with the PK tracking. I was planning a submerged end around, and I briefly popped the scope up to check the target vs. PK. Was working GREAT until I got about 20° ahead of the target, at which time the PK just disengaged...

I'm gonna keep searching for how best to exploit the thing. I'll stick with it, just right now I'm fightin against it more than anything.

Question one: I do not use the attack map at all. Reason, if find it useless and it still shows in 100m and I'm running Imperial. After I set up initial PK and have it rolling. I watch my AOB dial. If this is changing radically to what I see in the scope then I know my speed is off. I make my adjustments. Either lower or increase the speed setting. In short, if I set 90 degrees on the dial and I look a minute later, my target in the scope is still at 90 degrees but my dial is showing say 110 degrees, my speed is to fast on the PK. I slow it down two kts on the PK and set it again. Wait for a minute and recheck. If my dial has not changed radically to what I see in the scope, my speed calculation is pretty good. I used the PK tonight on targets coming across my bow from both port and starboard. It worked perfectly. Also, fast torpedoes are now fast. The PK has to stay to what you see in your scope/TBT. If not, you have a bad solution. It is just what it is a position keeper. If any of your inputs are incorrect then the keeper will look nothing like you see in the scope/TBT. The hardest calculation is speed and probably the top in the list of things to screw up your solution.


Question two: For point and shoot, you need to feed the AOB and the speed. I have only used this twice and do not recall if I turned the PK on or not. I do recall that it does work. I will have to play with it and you likewise.

Keep at it, it does work and you have to train your brain to input what your eye is seeing to the PK. Do your best to make it match what you see. Also, the closer to the target the clearer the solution is seen and easier to obtain. Get to within 1500 yards or closer. It is just a dumb merchant after all. Once you see the TDC do it's thing by your inputs, it is an awesome feeling.

Also, I'm not Deadeye Dick either. I get plenty of misses and the usual dud. I'm just glad they fixed the TDC for targets coming in on your port and fast torpedoes now work. Don't give up the ship Skipper! Took me hours of play to figure this bugger out

[CableRouter]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

The PK targets the "locked on" portion of the ship. To aim for certain parts of it, use the degree offset dial. For instance, if the periscope locks on the center stack of the ship, and you want to put a shot right under the bridge, unlock your periscope, move it over to where you want your torpedo to hit and note the change in bearing from the original "locked on" position. The degree change is the offset you use.

As joea mentioned, this is the way the TDC worked in real life.

There is a simpler method. Do everything normally, lock on, enter AoB and speed, then enter range. Then just before you fire, unlock the scope with the L key, aim the scope at the part of the ship you want to target, then hit the transmit data button. The TDC will update the solution for the new bearing. It's a lot easier than going to the torpedo data screen and trying to input an offset manually and it shouldn't take more than a 2-3 extra seconds.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by CableRouter

There is a simpler method. Do everything normally, lock on, enter AoB and speed, then enter range. Then just before you fire, unlock the scope with the L key, aim the scope at the part of the ship you want to target, then hit the transmit data button. The TDC will update the solution for the new bearing. It's a lot easier than going to the torpedo data screen and trying to input an offset manually and it shouldn't take more than a 2-3 extra seconds.

Two pages until someone finally brings it up. I've written about that in the past already several times, but nobody seems to read or understand it. Thank you, CableRouter.
Well, in the end, had the devs included a simple MARK button for bearing transmission like there was iRL, there would be

-more realism
-less confusion
-easier operation

The MARK button was such in integral part of the TDC that I do not understand why they didn't incooperate it and instead used "indirect" bearing transmission.

Read any book. "This is a firing observation! Stand by forward! Range 1200 yards. Bearing - MARK! Fire One!..Fire Two!...Fire Three!" "Three torpedoes fired electrically."

[Charos]

Originally Posted by joea

Look at the mods section for a fix for the torpedo doors.

Ok, sorry but TDC worked like that in real life. The scope and TBT were used to read the initial bearing but not directly linked to the TDC. In fact the scope was not linked to the TDC in u-boats either so SH3 has it wrong.

Joea do you have a reference for that?

Because on page 92 of "Type VII U-Boats" by Rober C Stern it has the following quote


"Both the attack periscope and the UZO were linked to the mechanical analog attack computer."

[joea]

Originally Posted by Charos

Joea do you have a reference for that?

Because on page 92 of "Type VII U-Boats" by Rober C Stern it has the following quote


"Both the attack periscope and the UZO were linked to the mechanical analog attack computer."

Oops sorry I was confused. I was thinking of the fact the German TDC did not update with a PK but was preset for a solution.

[Charos]

Roger - No problemo.

Its OK to be confused - anyone not confused hasnt gone over enough data.

[btaft]

aaronblood,

There is a way around it, just don't use the PK part of the TDC. For Convoy attacks in SH3 and Sh4 I like to set up ahead of time and wait for the ship to pass my predetermined solution. It goes something like this.....

1) Line up perpendicular to the Convoy course
2) Pick a point from the perpendicular in which you want to fire from (20 deg off usually works for me....this usually results inthe torp making close to a 90 deg impact for most convoys, 30 deg worsk better for fast convoys)
3) Point your scope down this bearing
4) Enter the "expected AOB" for this bearing and the speed into the dial and send them to the TDC....do not lock in the PK....you won't be using it. You can send the distance but this is arbitrary and is only really useful for determining the speed.
5) Wait for the ship to pass into your scope and fire. You can fire at any part of the ship that enters the cross hairs and if your solution was acurate then it should hit close to that part of the ship. Also you can hit any part of any ship that passes through your cross hairs no matter what line in the convoy they are in (because the distance is irrelevant).

Inaccuracies in your solution do become more apparent the further the target is away from you. This works good so long as you don't move your scope or at least return it to the same heading before firing. Using this method you can typically fire off a couple of fish at 2-3 merchants in varying ranks/files that pass through your cross hairs and then start to dive deep to reload and get ahead of the convoy and set up for round 2.

Hope this helps

[7Enigma]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

While I'm here, might as well ask... How do you make more than one tube ready to fire (open the tube doors) I only seem to be able to open em one-by-one?

Do you mean click once to open several tubes or be able to have more than one open at a time?

When I'm about to launch on several ships at once I click tube one, hit q, wait 2 seconds until I see the tube has been opened in the comments, then click tube two, hit q, wait, click tube three, hit q, etc. It takes all of 20 seconds to open up the majority of the tubes and then they can be "rapid" fired. I don't see a problem with this method. :hmm:

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by 7Enigma

Do you mean click once to open several tubes or be able to have more than one open at a time?

When I'm about to launch on several ships at once I click tube one, hit q, wait 2 seconds until I see the tube has been opened in the comments, then click tube two, hit q, wait, click tube three, hit q, etc. It takes all of 20 seconds to open up the majority of the tubes and then they can be "rapid" fired. I don't see a problem with this method. :hmm:

I'll test that... what I seemed to notice was if I went to external view and hit Q for a tube it would open... if I then selected a different tube, went to external and hit Q, the open door would close and then the new door opens? Maybe I wasn't waiting long enough? They've been working like toggle buttons for me.

[7Enigma]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

I'll test that... what I seemed to notice was if I went to external view and hit Q for a tube it would open... if I then selected a different tube, went to external and hit Q, the open door would close and then the new door opens? Maybe I wasn't waiting long enough? They've been working like toggle buttons for me.

Have you actually fired the torpedoes or just looked at the external view? I've never looked to see if more than one door is open, but when I open them one at a time manually and then fire several in rapid succession they do not take near as long to fire as if I never pressed Q on each one. That to me means they are open prior to firing. It's possible the graphics just aren't showing it properly?