Thinking Aloud About Tactics

[SeaQueen]

Grumble... grumble... grumble...

I keep playing KILO scenarios. It's the same thing every time: approach a fast moving strike group and bag a high value unit (either a CVN or an LHD). I keep trying to wedge myself between the screens and the high value units, shoot, go deep, pop up and shoot some more. I'm beginning to think this is a bad tactic, because I get killed every time. The thing is, I can't think of a good reason why.

It seems like the only viable option is to actually avoid getting in front of anyone, come in from a far offset angle and shoot from behind. Anything else is suicide.

[Dr.Sid]

They can only detect you with active sonar (if you go 5kts). To lower this chance, face pingers directly to minimize reflective area. Do some course alternations to get better TMA, since you will use only one sensor (sphere). But stay at pingers average heading +- 10 degrees, +-30 at maximum.
Start shooting at escorts, no matter what torpedoes you use. You just want them to react. They will evade and will break formation. Then attack target with best torpedoes you have. You can also turn sideway for a while to get tracks from the other sensor array. Sometimes the target will also react on torpedoes targeted on escorts, and you should notice that.

There is no reason for going deep. Situation awareness is more important.
You can go deep after the attack, or when there is a layer. But layer only works at some distance. When you hear the pings, they can hear returns.
When running away, again, point your tail directly at pingers. It will be much harder to see you for them.

Shoot at escorts in the moment target is safely in range. Wakehomers are great for chasing escorts (and killing them too), but for target i prefer passive mode. Wakehomers tends to follow ANY wake, so sometimes it is hard to make them hit the ship you want. Wireguided torpedoes are even better, and kilo's tests are pretty usable for that.

Also if you see escorts are runnings fast, which they will when evading and also when returning to the formation, you can assume they can't hear you at all.

Watch for the helos. Do EWR and scope scan before the attack. They won't be able to launch them during the attack most probably, but surviving escorts will launch them for sure later. You should not be there at that time however.

Kilo has however really too few torpedoes for such tasks. You may try to make perfect shot with wakehomers at the target. Make perfect solution, choose ideal activation point .. take evasion into account .. then fire & forget. This is more likely Kilo tactic.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

They can only detect you with active sonar (if you go 5kts).

The geometry of the problem is such that against a CSG or ESG going 15-20kts, though, you will usually need to go faster than that in order to get within torpedo range.

Also, why bother with sonar at all? I have periscope and ESM which I can see further with.

Start shooting at escorts, no matter what torpedoes you use.

I tried that and it always turns out badly. I usually get one escort but he has friends.

You just want them to react.

They do! With VLA! :-)

Kilo has however really too few torpedoes for such tasks. You may try to make perfect shot with wakehomers at the target.

I don't think so. Bare in mind, if you manage to sink a CVN or LHD, you've just inflicted a 9/11 sized blow to the US forces. It can definitely be done with what one has. It's also worth tremendous risk because the loss of one of these assets might very well mean the end of the war. I mean if the conflict had less than the national survival of the US at stake, then the government might very well say, "Oh well... I guess you get XXXX, good fight. 3000 Marines really isn't worth it."

[Dr.Sid]

I mean Kilo is not good for killing both target and escorts. Not enough fishies. Even Akula has full hands of work. Kilo could score on the target, but dealing with the escorts is just relying on luck.

Missile torpedoes are pretty good. I'd say you have no chance against those. Attacking group with missile torpedoes launchers with one Kilo is suicide. Even attacking one ship with that capability is risky.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

I'd say you have no chance against those. Attacking group with missile torpedoes launchers with one Kilo is suicide. Even attacking one ship with that capability is risky.

Gosh... you have very extreme opinions. I wouldn't go that far. I sank an LHD, damaged an LSD and a DDG this afternoon. I had to play the scenario four times to succeed, but eventually I pulled it off. There's no reason why it might also have turned out with two platforms sunk, an LHD and a DDG or CG would have been ideal. Better luck next time I suppose.

I don't think that going against any platform is necessarily suicide for any other platform. The hard part is figuring out what to do.

I wouldn't try to sink every ship in the strike group. That would be extremely difficult and you're right, I don't think I'd have enough torpedoes to do it, but that's okay. Sinking an LHD, damaging an LSD and a DDG constitutes a potentially war winning loss for the USN and 9/11 scale destruction. I think I can call that sufficient mehem for one afternoon's wargaming.

[OneShot]

To have even a chance against a CVBG for example you need one crucial element before everything else and thats first class intelligence ... you need to know when they are at a given point. Without that, trying to go up against such a target with a SSK is like playing russian roulette with a semiautomatic.

Lets assume you have that intelligence, there are in my eyes two options.

Option 1

Lay in ambush waiting for the target. If its a CVBG for example let the screens run over you and go for the carrier. Once you shot your fish try to get away, but the chances for that are not to bright.

Option 2

Deploy one or more CAPTORS programmed for the high value target at the location where the target will be and pray your intel and the tech works. If everything works as planned you will get the target without risking your own ass.

Btw. I think Patrick Robinson described Option 2 (with the addition of a Nuclear Warhead) in Nimitz Class.

There might be other options if you have a SSK that can go fast and silent for longer periods of time (like the U212 class) but for the sake of the argument lets assume we dont have that available.

Cheers
OS

[timmyg00]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Bare in mind, if you manage to sink a CVN or LHD, you've just inflicted a 9/11 sized blow to the US forces. It can definitely be done with what one has. It's also worth tremendous risk because the loss of one of these assets might very well mean the end of the war.

Any country that would want to deliver such a decisive blow might send more than one Kilo into such a situation... sounds like a good co-op mission.

TG

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by timmyg00

Any country that would want to deliver such a decisive blow might send more than one Kilo into such a situation... sounds like a good co-op mission.

It depends on what you mean by sending more than one. Just because they sent more than one doesn't mean they'll be acting together in coordination. As I've said before, a single submarine skillfully handled can certainly sink an LHD or CVN.

You might also send out a group of submarines to fill a large area so that the strike group the submarines intend to attack is more likely to be found. If a sub finds the strike group he might send a message back to headquarters (since it's unknown if the other subs are capable of communicating, they can't send it directly to them), and then begin his attack.

I'm not sure I'd want to concentrate a group of subs in too small an area though because it means that if one detects one, one is more likely to detect all of them and at that point they all get smacked. The other thing is that it compouds the big handicap of KILOs: they're slow and can't search a big area quickly.

The other vessels, once they get the message that the strike group was sighted at a particular location at a particular time, moving at a particular speed and course might then move to attack it, if they're in range they might even fire cruise missiles at it but by that point, the initial submarine's attack is most likely over.

[ASWnut101]

Im not too sure if it is even possible today, with the invention of AEGIS the threat of cruise missiles is very low, plus (I have not heard this from any of you yet) Standard carrier battle group formation ALWAYS includes 2 (sometimes 1) SSN's, Los Angeles Class for the U.S.

The SSNs virtually eliminate the threat of SSK intrusion (except maby for a 212 or a Go(a)tland, but even then once the SSK fires, it will give itself away) I think the possibility of an SSK killing a CVN or LHD is VERY low, and getting lower because of advancing technology.

[timmyg00]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

You might also send out a group of submarines to fill a large area so that the strike group the submarines intend to attack is more likely to be found. If a sub finds the strike group he might send a message back to headquarters (since it's unknown if the other subs are capable of communicating, they can't send it directly to them), and then begin his attack.

That would be my favored approach, were I the OPFORCOM...

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

I'm not sure I'd want to concentrate a group of subs in too small an area though because it means that if one detects one, one is more likely to detect all of them and at that point they all get smacked.

Agreed!

TG

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

It depends on what you mean by sending more than one. Just because they sent more than one doesn't mean they'll be acting together in coordination. As I've said before, a single submarine skillfully handled can certainly sink an LHD or CVN.

You might also send out a group of submarines to fill a large area so that the strike group the submarines intend to attack is more likely to be found. If a sub finds the strike group he might send a message back to headquarters (since it's unknown if the other subs are capable of communicating, they can't send it directly to them), and then begin his attack.

I'm not sure I'd want to concentrate a group of subs in too small an area though because it means that if one detects one, one is more likely to detect all of them and at that point they all get smacked. The other thing is that it compouds the big handicap of KILOs: they're slow and can't search a big area quickly.

The other vessels, once they get the message that the strike group was sighted at a particular location at a particular time, moving at a particular speed and course might then move to attack it, if they're in range they might even fire cruise missiles at it but by that point, the initial submarine's attack is most likely over.

______________________________________
"if one detects one, one is more likely to detect all of them"

Like with the USS England getting six Jap boats in one blow(actually one was credited to a CVE in the task force)?
My limited game experience with kilos would indicate that it would be logical to regard them as expendable. Besides it could conceivably have the opposite effect and they could be in effect each others ECM. Has anyone ever tried to make that last idea work in a game(not necessarily with a Kilo)?

[Palindromeria]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Grumble.It seems like the only viable option is to actually avoid getting in front of anyone, come in from a far offset angle and shoot from behind. Anything else is suicide.

i have a kilo (lin san liu) vs US cv group combat mission that ive been running now and then for a coupla months now.

i concur with your initial assesment.

i quickly decided that 2nd attack was almost always pointless.

i prefer to fire the 1 salvo of 6 and run like hell during the precious few moments the enemy is occupied trying to evade my torps. Sinking the cv AND surviving is a rarity.

if i attack a second time in this scenario, it leads directly to my demise.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Palindromeria

i have a kilo (lin san liu) vs US cv group combat mission that ive been running now and then for a coupla months now.

Oh interesting! I was going to put one out soon. People seemed to enjoy the Expeditionary Strike Group one, so I figured that a Carrier Strike Group (CSG) scenario would be a logical extension.

Btw, I finally found a situation where it was advantageous to shoot my way in. I made a mistake on my maneuvering board and ended up choosing a course such that my CPA to a DDG was less than ~2Nmi. At 3Nmi, I realized I was going to be detected shortly by one of the screens so I shot 6 SET-53 torpedoes. 4 of them hit. While the DDG wasn't sunk, it was out of action, which is good enough for me.

Having left a flaming datum, I ran for the center of the formation and shot my wakehomers at the CVN. Ta dah!

i quickly decided that 2nd attack was almost always pointless.

It depends. The other day I shot a salvo and some of the torpedoes hit the shotgun ship and not the aircraft carrier, so I shot the second salvo. I figure if I have 'em I'm shooting them. It's not like I get bonus points for using fewer torpedoes. If I'm lucky I might get a combat logistics ship (ideally) or a surface combattant.

i prefer to fire the 1 salvo of 6 and run like hell during the precious few moments the enemy is occupied trying to evade my torps. Sinking the cv AND surviving is a rarity.

I have yet to get killed in the improved KILO. In the export one that's a different story, but the improved one I do a lot better in. What happens with me frequently is that I shoot and whiff. If you figure on a CSG clipping along at ~20kts then the space between the limiting lines of approach is quite narrow. Since there's not really any way to make up time and try to catch up with a short burst of speed, it's pretty easy to put one's self in a bad position to take a shot, and the torpedoes miss, or you end up out of range.

[Kapitan]

Attack once and once only coming back for a second attempt is litteraly suicide because the enamy will be waiting for you to come back, however if you have ID'd all surface and sub units and there are no targets that are sugnificant threat and if they are put yourself in in a position where your less likely to be attacked.

The second attack is one heck of a lot harder than the first.

[SeaQueen]

I'm not saying I'm leaving and then coming back. I generally shoot at such a close range that there really isn't time to go anywhere. I'd phrase it more as a second salvo.

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Attack once and once only coming back for a second attempt is litteraly suicide because the enamy will be waiting for you to come back, however if you have ID'd all surface and sub units and there are no targets that are sugnificant threat and if they are put yourself in in a position where your less likely to be attacked.

The second attack is one heck of a lot harder than the first.