[REL] Real Fleet Boat

[Fanthum]

Beery

Is there a way to remove the nomograph?

A simple edit to "menu 1024 768" to remove nomograph

disregard found file in menu file and removed it.

Fanthum

[tater]

Beery, your Dutch Harbor squadron (division?) has a patrol objective to Kodiak.

You have something in mind, or is it just to rub in that they are in a submarine backwater?

tater

[perisher]

Originally Posted by Beery

It should not be easy for a ship's crew to spot a periscope.

If they can spot my scope at 2000 yards, in a moderate sea, at NIGHT, why do I find it so hard to locate downed flyers?

Just the other day I saw a program on the idiot box about modern Australian submarines. On a working up exercise against two frigates, in daylight with a slight sea running, HMAS Rankin (SSG 78) was able to get close enough to see men on their decks through the scope and then pass close enough beneath HMAS Adelaide to be able to photgraph her screws, undetected by any sensor, not the AN/SQS-56 sonar or the Eyeball Mk.1.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by tater

Beery, your Dutch Harbor squadron (division?) has a patrol objective to Kodiak.

You have something in mind, or is it just to rub in that they are in a submarine backwater?

tater

Dutch Harbor boats got assigned there because it was thought that the Japanese might have had plans in that area. RFB's Dutch Harbor operations are all based on real patrol zones and missions.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by perisher

If they can spot my scope at 2000 yards, in a moderate sea, at NIGHT, why do I find it so hard to locate downed flyers?

Just the other day I saw a program on the idiot box about modern Australian submarines. On a working up exercise against two frigates, in daylight with a slight sea running, HMAS Rankin (SSG 78) was able to get close enough to see men on their decks through the scope and then pass close enough beneath HMAS Adelaide to be able to photgraph her screws, undetected by any sensor, not the AN/SQS-56 sonar or the Eyeball Mk.1.

Exactly. Unfortunately, thanks to those who believe that humans never get tired or lose concentration when staring out to sea for hours on end, it appears we're stuck with AI that's equipped with superhuman eyesight and indefatigable concentration, rendering the sub virtually useless for periscope operations.

When I get back into SH4 I may end up going back to 1.2 because of this. The whole point of a sub's periscope is that it's extremely hard to see, even at close range. The problem is, the devs have probably heard of one or two cases where a sub periscope was spotted at long ranges and they assumed that such a feat of observation and concentration was possible all the time. They also had the arcade crowd clamouring for AI that attacks anything within 10,000 yards, no matter that real humans in WW2 very rarely knew a sub was there even when it was within 1,000 yards.

I get the feeling that our hard work turning SH4 into a truly realistic simulation has been altogether undermined by this change. Subs are supposed to be stealthy by definition, but apparently not in SH4 version 1.3. Without its stealth capabilities a submarine is just a big target. Maybe I'm overreacting though, but as I see it there was nothing wrong with AI eyesight in 1.2 - the AI failed to see stuff that real humans would usually fail to see and it saw things that real humans couldn't miss. In 1.3 if the AI is routinely seeing periscopes at 1,000 yards at night that's a big problem in terms of realism, since the optimum range for a torpedo attack was 1,000 yards and there are cases in WW2 where SURFACED subs were not noticed at night at even shorter ranges.

[tater]

I assumed it was a realistic patrol. I just added some traffic to attu and kiska is all.

tater

[Beery]

Originally Posted by tater

I assumed it was a realistic patrol. I just added some traffic to attu and kiska is all.

tater

I didn't mean to sound standoffish, but I was trying to answer in the most vague terms in order to avoid spoilers for those who don't know what to expect in the Kodiak patrols.

[tater]

My aleutian traffic mission is in its own layer if you are at all interested. I could zip it up with an altered (from rfb 1.31) campaign.cfg in a jiffy if you like.

PM me.

tater

[flymar]

Just a question: why is helper tool reverted? Is there a way to turn it?

[Paul Roberts]

Originally Posted by Beery

I agree. In fact I'd go further. Contrary to many people's complaints that the 1.2 visual detection was set too low I'd say it was about spot-on. SH4 version 1.3 has catered to popular demand while making the game less realistic and less playable. The whole point of a periscope is that you should be able to pop it up within 1000 yards and most often it WON'T be seen. Lookouts are scanning the horizon and 360 degrees around the ship and all the way from the horizon to the ship. If the sub is stationary the chances of seeing a periscope are poor even at 20 yards in broad daylight in optimal conditions!

It should not be easy for a ship's crew to spot a periscope.

I don't even know how to mod this. I kept the AI visual abilities the same from 1.28 to 1.31 so that's not where the devs made this change.

This sort of stuff really pisses me off. I mean in my view this was something that didn't need fixing.

Is there no other mod that addresses this? I'd really love to add it to my RFB installation.

[tater]

I was seeking a kind of reverse of the 1.3 state in 1.2. I would prefer for it to be possible for my scope to be spotted, but not always spotted, particularly by merchants (I never once had any ship at any range shoot at my scope before 1.3 without an AI visual mod in place---and I tried to test it, flank in a dead calm sea under 500 yards from a DD. he heard me, but never shot).

My idea was this. Make a new sensor (assuming that is possible). We have AI_visual, add in AI-visual_m where _m is military. Warships have at least an order of magnitude more crew than merchant ships. They are trained, and they stand watch in large numbers, 24/7. The military ships can have one set of sensitivities by installing the _m version in their sns files---some lesser types (SCs, gunboats, etc) might get the "regular" version. The regular version might be dropped to 1.2 or even less while the _m version is closer to 1.3 default.

tater

[nimitstexan]

In the meantime, I have switched the AI visual sensors to something closer to stock 1.3.

[Bill Nichols]

Originally Posted by nimitstexan

In the meantime, I have switched the AI visual sensors to something closer to stock 1.3.

More explaination on how you did this, and how it works, would be appreciated

[nimitstexan]

Just edited the visual sensor in sim.cfg to 1.3 values (or near them). It fixed the "Hi-Vis" scope, at least (though I do not know if it went to far in the other direction). Current Settings:

[Visual]
Detection time=0.5 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1) at (sensitivity * max range) we have a double detection time.
Fog factor=2.0 ;[>=0] (was 1.0)
Light factor=1.7 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=4.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=400 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=1.0

BTW (and I know this has been done to death), but regarding the deck gun ROFs, I just cannot help thinking that the ROF should use the 15-17 second "ready ammunition" figure, since (a) the slower rate of fire is probably also due to careful aiming, etc as much as it is to physical reload rate; (b) most gun engagements are probably not going to last past 90 rounds (at least they have not in my experiance); and (c) while relatively rare, it is possible to find oneself on the surface up against a small, relatively poorly armed escort vessel where a quick (i.e. under 90 rounds) gun action is your best bet for survival, and where the 23 second reload time can prove fatal.

[kikn79]

Originally Posted by Beery

In 1.3 if the AI is routinely seeing periscopes at 1,000 yards at night that's a big problem in terms of realism, since the optimum range for a torpedo attack was 1,000 yards and there are cases in WW2 where SURFACED subs were not noticed at night at even shorter ranges.

I have not noticed this problem. In fact, I came up to radar depth to send off a contact report 3000 yards away from a merchant and 1500 yards away from an escort. Neither one saw me and I was able to slink back down to periscope depth and attack. Nobody saw that I was there until the torpedoes started exploding. In fact, I have yet to be attacked in 1.3. Even when I have "wiggled" my periscope around to get some attention and the DDs come roaring in with "a bone in their teeth" escape is comically easy. I do enjoy watching them running around looking for me DCing the empty ocean (and occasionally blowing up the survivors life rafts).

Chuck