The Death Penalty...Is it right?

[Skybird]

This thread has good chances to become voted "revival of the day".

Sorry for the ambigous humour...

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Skybird

This thread has good chances to become voted "revival of the day".

Sorry for the ambigous humour...

And to think I ressurected it!

[Yahoshua]

Funny....you guys are butting heads over intepretation of the text and you don't even know the original language!!



Oh well, soda and popcorn to enjoy the show.

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Funny....you guys are butting heads over intepretation of the text and you don't even know the original language!!



Oh well, soda and popcorn to enjoy the show.

Nor that many even believe. Lest it suits their argument...........hypocracy at its liberal best.

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by Hitman

There is an additional problem with death penalty which makes it many times as unfair as any other...if someone kills one person you can execute him and that will be a proportioned revenge (Let me emphasize: Revenge). But he kills more than one you can't kill him more than once so you are stuck with unfairness But that's always like that in criminal laws, where the theory behind them is retributive, and not restitutive like in civil laws.:hmm: There comes a moment where the offence is so big that it can't be retributed proportionally, and the fact that it could not be restituted was anyway a given in criminal laws.

Aside from that, the main argument that makes me stand against death penalty is practical: You can make an error and kill an innocent, which is way more unfair that not pubishing a guilty one IMHO.

EDITED:

Hey Heibges..,where does that leave the people who earn their wage working as Judges in courts?? :hmm:

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...

[Yahoshua]

Ya know, while I'm enjoying the show I may as well fan the flames a bit:

Whaddya guys think of this?

(NIV)

17. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So taking this into the context that "Jesus" obeyed the Torah, wouldn't you then need to apply the Torah in this circumstance? If so, what does it say? Lets' find out:

Exodus 21:12 -14, 18-19, 22-25, and 28-29 (from the Chumash)


Verse 12: If one strikes a man and he [the victim] dies, he shall be put to death.
Verse 13: But if he did not lie in wait [to ambush him] but G-d brought it to his hand, then I will designate for you a place, to which he can flee [and find refuge]. Verse 14: But if a man plots against his neighbor to kill him intentionally, you may [even] take him from My altar to put him to death.

.....


Verse 18: When men quarrel and one man hits his fellow with a stone or with [his] fist; and he [the victim] does not die but becomes bedridden, Verse 19: If he gets up and is able to walk on the outside on his own power, the one who struck him shall be acquitted. Still he must pay for his loss of work, and must pay for his complete cure.

.....


Verse 22: If men will fight and they strike a pregnant woman, causing her to miscarry, but there is no fatal injury [to the woman], he [the guilty one] is to be punished with a [monetary] penalty when the husband demands compensation. He shall pay as determined by the judges.
Verse 23: However if there is a fatal injury, you shall give [up] a life for a life.
Verse 24: [Compensation of] an eye for an eye, [of] a tooth for a tooth, [of] a hand for a hand, [of] a foot for a foot. Verse 25: [Compensation of] a burn for a burn, [of] a wound for a wound, [of] a bruise for a bruise.

.....


Verse 28: If an ox gores a man or woman and the victim dies, the ox shall be stoned [to death], and its flesh may not be eaten. The owner of the ox shall go unpunished. Verse 29: But if the ox had gored yesterday and the day before, and a warning was given to its owner, but he had not taken proper precautions to guard it, and kills a man or a woman, the ox must be stoned, and the owner also shall die [by Divine decree].

http://www.tachash.org/texis/vtx/chverse/search.html

Be sure to read the commentary with it to get a better picture of the commands, their basic explanation and how it was meant to be applied.

I'm done fanning the flames.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Fish

Very well spoken, thou shall not kill!!

When you kill a murderer, you are one too. See your own quote.

So, how does the soldier respond? If killing is killing, then shouldn't everyone refuse to join any army?

As Avon said, in the original language the injunction is against murder, not judicial punishment.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by waste gate

Nor that many even believe. Lest it suits their argument...........hypocracy at its liberal best.

Its not a matter of belief or convenience. Its a simple fact that the Western world was populated in its origins (thats national origins, not including those unfortunate natives) by people of christian faith. As such that faith continually shows up as a reasoning behind all sorts of things which are controversial. So what is a non-believer to do? Say "oh I'm sorry. I don't believe in this and as such I am incapable of reasoning as to why it is flawed logic or why it is misinterpreted by its own proponents, therefore I am permanently banished from discrediting any argument that has a faith based supportive argument included"? Just because you call yourself a christian doesn't mean that you have the monopoly on talking about it. If people continue to bring forth faith based reasons for why something should or should not be then all us pinko-commie liberal life hating state destroying baby raping pacifists are going to have to talk about it in more than just general terms.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Heibges

Out of context? Just applies to neighbors? Not according to the Sermon on the Mount.

Matthew 5: 38 to 48

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect

Again taken out of context - Can you name at least one of the 12 apostiles that carried a sword? Do you know he even used it in the presence of Jesus? The way you write, he would be forbidden from doing so. So again, you are again talking about your neighbor, whom you are supposed to forgive. It is even referenced in that passages you quote. Not about the stranger that comes in and murders your family. You have every right to put him to death.

-S

[Hitman]

Can you name at least one of the 12 apostiles that carried a sword?

St. Paul What have I won? :hmm:

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

[, then shouldn't everyone refuse to join any army?

Only when you are religious..... then, yes.
Its one of the ten commandments, the rest is sidetalk.

To make myself clear, if I saw you kill my daughter for example, I kill you at the spot.
Give me the time to think, I am not.
No dead penalty here since the after days of WW II.
Do we have a problem now.. no we haven't.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Fish

...No dead penalty here since the after days of WW II.
Do we have a problem now.. no we haven't.

Hahaha! Funny. THe majority of your countrymen in the Netherlands now favor the Death Penalty, and their numbers are rising. Guess you are now in the minority. There is talk of re-instating it. This is due to your crime problems.

-S

[The Avon Lady]

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Can I have some popcorn too?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Hitman

St. Paul What have I won? :hmm:

You can have some of AL's popcorn.

To go back to the scripture however, one thing that is stressed over and over again is that you should forgive, but you should also not simply tolerate or turn a blind eye. Our world however is becoming one of PC'ness and toleration to some of the craziest stuff you have ever heard. This is simply not acceptable.

-S

PS. I forgot to mention - Paul was supposedly pretty good with that thing too. Apparently one time with a simply swing, he was able to surgically remove a persons ear! Thats pretty precise if you ask me! Skybird might be impressed at that.