Obamacare

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

Good luck trying to support the military, among all the things listed in the link above, on no income tax, bubblehead. Did you just assume the military runs on faith?

We weren't supposed to have a standing military, or so the founders mostly believed. I'm glad that they were wrong, and our military has always been subject to the civilian government. All that said, since the Second World War the military has been kept big mainly to support the defense industry, and has mostly been used to interfere in other peoples' problems.

I agree that the direct income tax is a bad thing. The Federal government was originally supposed to have two jobs - to unite the States against foreign powers and to arbitrate disputes between the States. That it now dabbles in every corner of our lives is a testament to how willing we are to pretend it hasn't turned into a bloated parody of what it was originally meant to be.

I'm up in the air on the subject of State-run healthcare, but I believe it should be done by the States, not the Federal Government.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yep, that's where Madison ran into the wall of reality in the early 1800s.


That's exactly what Madison would have said just before he said build me a big army and a navy and more guns and a better militia and proper officers. So much for the founding fathers eh?

Okay, I am not saying no standing army, with today's threats we need a standing army, navy, air force. However, we dont need a military designed for maintaining an empire instead of defense.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

We weren't supposed to have a standing military, or so the founders mostly believed. I'm glad that they were wrong, and our military has always been subject to the civilian government. All that said, since the Second World War the military has been kept big mainly to support the defense industry, and has mostly been used to interfere in other peoples' problems.

I agree that the direct income tax is a bad thing. The Federal government was originally supposed to have two jobs - to unite the States against foreign powers and to arbitrate disputes between the States. That it now dabbles in every corner of our lives is a testament to how willing we are to pretend it hasn't turned into a bloated parody of what it was originally meant to be.

I'm up in the air on the subject of State-run healthcare, but I believe it should be done by the States, not the Federal Government.

Yep, Eisenhower hit it on the head. Sometimes I think we would be better off with about 1/2 what we have, not like any nation gonna attack us and maybe we would stop invading nations and policing the world.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

That is like saying, well the guy robbed me but he is feeding his family.No, it's not supposed to be the american way.Our "tolerance" allowed the cancer of "progressivism" to move in, we are almost dead from it, perhaps we will find the cure, many of us know it, just need to get everyone to wake up.

Bubbles, the men and women before you paid their taxes. You enjoyed the benefits of their contributions. The kids today will benefit down the road from the original tax payer, you and others after us. What then is the American way? Selfish isolation from neighbors? No. As far as tolerance, are you faultless were there is nothing someone would have to be tolerant with? Sounds to me you just don't care for getting taxed but it is OK for you to enjoy the benefits of those that paid taxes before you. The balance sheet is not in your favor. Sure, plenty don't contribute. They make nothing. Then there are those make thousands and hiding it off shore. The one great option here in the US is freedom to renounce citizenship and move to another country of you liking. A group of people from Europe did this very same thing. They named their new land America.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Bubbles, the men and women before you paid their taxes. You enjoyed the benefits of their contributions. The kids today will benefit down the road from the original tax payer, you and others after us. What then is the American way? Selfish isolation from neighbors? No. As far as tolerance, are you faultless were there is nothing someone would have to be tolerant with? Sounds to me you just don't care for getting taxed but it is OK for you to enjoy the benefits of those that paid taxes before you. The balance sheet is not in your favor. Sure, plenty don't contribute. They make nothing. Then there are those make thousands and hiding it off shore. The one great option here in the US is freedom to renounce citizenship and move to another country of you liking. A group of people from Europe did this very same thing. They named their new land America.

Yes and people have been getting robbed of their hard earned income since 1913 when this horrible amendment was ratified. No one should have their income directly taxed, it's wrong.Income tax is unamerican. No one has the right to tell someone what to do with THEIR money, period. That is not selfish, that is an individual right.

That is why we must save this country, it really is the last bastion of freedom, or was, its close to being extinct.Where would I move? europe? lol it's worse here than there far as taxes go. This country was supposed to be about the individual, not the collective.Sure, we could have a safety net paid with other taxes, but directly taking an income tax, esp one the goes up with the more money you make, is wrong and there is a reason the founders did not include such a monstrosity, it's anti liberty and unamerican, it just violates the basis of this country. The progressive trash caused this, it must be fought and undone if possible. Probably too late, too many people think collectively now, which is a large part of our problem.The indoctrination in this country by the average person blows my mind, then again, most people go to public schools, thats kind of the point of government education eh ?

[CaptainMattJ.]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

We weren't supposed to have a standing military, or so the founders mostly believed. I'm glad that they were wrong, and our military has always been subject to the civilian government. All that said, since the Second World War the military has been kept big mainly to support the defense industry, and has mostly been used to interfere in other peoples' problems.

I agree that the direct income tax is a bad thing. The Federal government was originally supposed to have two jobs - to unite the States against foreign powers and to arbitrate disputes between the States. That it now dabbles in every corner of our lives is a testament to how willing we are to pretend it hasn't turned into a bloated parody of what it was originally meant to be.

I'm up in the air on the subject of State-run healthcare, but I believe it should be done by the States, not the Federal Government.

Yet after the colossal failure of the articles of confederation, the founding fathers gave federal supremacy its own clause in Article VI of the constitution over the laws of states (but of course was only ratified with the bill of rights proposed by anti-federalists, allowing a balance between the two extremes). A strong central government with individual and states rights is absolutely necessary to keep the union together. If we didnt, the states would be at each other's throats, running around and doing whatever they wanted, and we'll end up like we were right after the revolutionary war.

But if you take a good long look at the progression of this country, you'll see the reasons why our government is as active as they are today. Imagine if Abraham Lincoln hadn't challenged the secession of the south nor went through hell to pass the 13th amendment. Speculate all you want, the outcome would not have been good for anyone. Imagine if people were still being worked 18 hours a day in extremely deplorable work conditions with dirt pay and what amounted to unofficial slavery. Imagine if Monopolies and big business were allowed to do what they pulled in the early 1900s. Imagine if there was no minimum wage, if there was no social security, if there was no federally funded healthcare nor aid for the poor.

Federal government has gotten this way because of the way the American enterprises have abused and extorted the hundreds of millions of everyday americans. Federal government has gotten so involved because laissez-faire capitalism only ever ends up destroying and oppressing the working class, time and time and time again.

We started this country your way; hands off. And due to the idealistic nature of hands-off government, it failed the second it hit reality. So we changed it. Now some people argue its become too big. But, unfortunately, few who argue its too big also take into consideration the problems that prompted it in the first place. The american dream has, since the beginning of this country, been an unrealistic and adverse goal for the american people. It took hundreds of years before a working class american could expect to not have to work 18 hours a day, in deplorable conditions, for pennies.It took hundreds of years before blacks and other minorities could even hope of competing equally with whites in this country. It took hundreds of years to regulate out-of-control monopolies and corporate extortion of workers. It took hundreds of years to provide free education to every american, to provide assistance to those who got knocked off their feet, to allow people to retire and not have to work until they die. To give the elderly, our mothers and fathers, healthcare and safety in their old age.

It took us so long to get where we are today. And the only reason for it is the actions of the people to rally forth our federal (and state) government to make resounding and monumental solutions to the plagues of this country and of its people. If you want to argue that the government is too big, reflect on our history before suggesting how to limit it.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

Yet after the colossal failure of the articles of confederation, the founding fathers gave federal supremacy its own clause in Article VI of the constitution. A strong central government is absolutely necessary to keep the union together. If we didnt, the states would be at each other's throats, running around and doing whatever they wanted, and we'll end up like we were right after the revolutionary war.

But if you take a good long look at the progression of this country, you'll see the reasons why our government is as active as they are today. Imagine if Abraham Lincoln hadn't challenged the secession of the south nor went through hell to pass the 13th amendment. Speculate all you want, the outcome would not have been good for anyone. Imagine if people were still being worked 18 hours a day in extremely deplorable work conditions with dirt pay and what amounted to unofficial slavery. Imagine if Monopolies and big business were allowed to do what they pulled in the early 1900s. Imagine if there was no minimum wage, if there was no social security, if there was no federally funded healthcare nor aid for the poor.

Federal government has gotten this way because of the way the American enterprises have abused and extorted the hundreds of millions of everyday americans. Federal government has gotten so involved because laissez-faire capitalism only ever ends up destroying and oppressing the working class, time and time and time again.

We started this country your way; hands off. And due to the idealistic nature of hands-off government, it failed the second it hit reality. So we changed it. Now some people argue its become too big. But, unfortunately, few who argue its too big also take into consideration the problems that prompted it in the first place. The american dream has, since the beginning of this country, been an unrealistic and adverse goal for the american people. It took hundreds of years before a working class american could expect to not have to work 18 hours a day, in deplorable conditions, for pennies.It took hundreds of years before blacks and other minorities could even hope of competing equally with whites in this country. It took hundreds of years to regulate out-of-control monopolies and corporate extortion of workers. It took hundreds of years to provide free education to every american, to provide assistance to those who got knocked off their feet, to allow people to retire and not have to work until they die. To give the elderly, our mothers and fathers, healthcare and safety in their old age.

It took us so long to get where we are today. And the only reason for it is the actions of the people to rally forth our federal (and state) government to make resounding and monumental solutions to the plagues of this country and of its people. If you want to argue that the government is too big, reflect on our history before suggesting how to limit it.

Okay, I think you are misunderstanding what needs to be done.The government is so big, it is the problem now and one reason it is the problem, is that is has money coming in, feeding the beast. I don't want the government to stop us from having reasonable work weeks, or conditions but I do want them to stop screwing up the economy, which they have done with taxes and regulation and to stop stealing people's money.Also, needs to stop being in the empire business, but the only way to do that is to starve the beast.

Are you kidding me? The constitution was about a limited federal government.The founders knew the evil of a large, centralized government, and that the nature of men in government was to become tyrannical, they did their best to prevent this and it worked for a while. The federal government is meant to be limited, reserving most powers for the states and the people.

I wish Lincoln the tyrant had known his proper place, respected states rights and not launched the northern war of aggression but he did, and 800,000 people were killed, many more left mentally and physically scarred for life.An entire section of the country was left in ruins, and suffered for years after.Part of the problems sill plaguing the south, can be traced back to the civil war.Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, imprisoned his critics, allowed for war crimes to be committed(scorched earth?) and like I said, left nearly a million citizens dead.Lincoln could have handled it differently, he wanted war and unfortunately, it worked out for the tyrant.

All of that aside, a change is needed because things are not and have not been working.We must move away from socialism as much as possible, repeal the 16th amendment, respect individual liberities and save this country, it's the only way.More of this progressive cancer will just cause our downfall.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Lincoln did indeed outstep his boundaries and his powers. He even dragged the war on to get the 13th amendment passed. His boldness and his actions, though illegal, gave us the free union we have today, so that those of us living in this country can all call ourselves americans, under a single flag and as a single nation. History otherwise wouldve taken a very, very different path, possibly and more likely for the worst. The world would be a drastically different place had the union split in two, whether it be for better or for worse, nobody could possibly know for certain.

And that's all i gotta say about that. I'd also like to mention that we have too many threads on the civil war already and the arguments about it should probably be kept there so as to stay on topic and not make the mods frustrated.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Are you kidding me? The constitution was about a limited federal government.The founders knew the evil of a large, centralized government, and that the nature of men in government was to become tyrannical, they did their best to prevent this and it worked for a while. The federal government is meant to be limited, reserving most powers for the states and the people.

I wish Lincoln the tyrant had known his proper place, respected states rights and not launched the northern war of aggression but he did, and 800,000 people were killed, many more left mentally and physically scarred for life.An entire section of the country was left in ruins, and suffered for years after.Part of the problems sill plaguing the south, can be traced back to the civil war.Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, imprisoned his critics, allowed for war crimes to be committed(scorched earth?) and like I said, left nearly a million citizens dead.Lincoln could have handled it differently, he wanted war and unfortunately, it worked out for the tyrant.

Exactly, our forefathers deplored the idea of a central controlling govt and that's exactly what we got after the war or northern aggression. The feds should only do what states/people can't do for themselves. Look at the monster that was created in Washington. Now we have Obama forcing us to buy services.

I'm all for live and let live as long as you don't harm anyone but yourself or make me pay for your mistakes. IMO, you want to make love to a goat on your own property, go for it..

Honestly, I hate them all.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

We weren't supposed to have a standing military, or so the founders mostly believed. I'm glad that they were wrong, and our military has always been subject to the civilian government. All that said, since the Second World War the military has been kept big mainly to support the defense industry, and has mostly been used to interfere in other peoples' problems.

I agree that the direct income tax is a bad thing. The Federal government was originally supposed to have two jobs - to unite the States against foreign powers and to arbitrate disputes between the States. That it now dabbles in every corner of our lives is a testament to how willing we are to pretend it hasn't turned into a bloated parody of what it was originally meant to be.

I'm up in the air on the subject of State-run healthcare, but I believe it should be done by the States, not the Federal Government.

Originally Posted by Armistead

Yep, Eisenhower hit it on the head. Sometimes I think we would be better off with about 1/2 what we have, not like any nation gonna attack us and maybe we would stop invading nations and policing the world.

Although, to be honest I haven't made up my mind on income tax being a good or bad thing. I do understand however, orginaly there was no income tax.

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

...
It took us so long to get where we are today. And the only reason for it is the actions of the people to rally forth our federal (and state) government to make resounding and monumental solutions to the plagues of this country and of its people. If you want to argue that the government is too big, reflect on our history before suggesting how to limit it.

Says the guy from the most progressive state in the union, with an obscene amount of taxes and regulation. How's that working out for ya?
http://www.howmoneywalks.com/web-app/

Just sayin'...

Originally Posted by Armistead

Exactly, our forefathers deplored the idea of a central controlling govt and that's exactly what we got after the war or northern aggression. The feds should only do what states/people can't do for themselves. Look at the monster that was created in Washington. Now we have Obama forcing us to buy services.

I'm all for live and let live as long as you don't harm anyone but yourself or make me pay for your mistakes.

(although, I'll still call it the Civil War. )

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

I wish Lincoln the tyrant had known his proper place, respected states rights and not launched the northern war of aggression but he did, and 800,000 people were killed, many more left mentally and physically scarred for life.An entire section of the country was left in ruins, and suffered for years after.Part of the problems sill plaguing the south, can be traced back to the civil war.Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, imprisoned his critics, allowed for war crimes to be committed(scorched earth?) and like I said, left nearly a million citizens dead.Lincoln could have handled it differently, he wanted war and unfortunately, it worked out for the tyrant.

I've told you before, leave it for the Civil War threads. I even answered several of your claims, but you never answered back, yet here you are spewing the same crap again, changing the subject just so you can have your say unchallenged. Try having a real discussion for a change.

Originally Posted by Armistead

Exactly, our forefathers deplored the idea of a central controlling govt and that's exactly what we got after the war or northern aggression.

Goes for you too.

I would have thought that since "war of northern aggression" is a term pushed forward by some dumb racists in the late 1950s, that anyone with an iota of sense would avoid it like the plague.

[AVGWarhawk]

How did a ACA thread turn to a Civil War discussion?

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I would have thought that since "war of northern aggression" is a term pushed forward by some dumb racists in the late 1950s, that anyone with an iota of sense would avoid it like the plague.

The expression "War of Northern Aggression" was coined to make the Civil War sound more like a war between two independent nations instead of an actual civil war. It always rankled the South that they were never recognized as such at home or abroad.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

How did a ACA thread turn to a Civil War discussion?

I think it's the same thing pretty much. It's job security for Steve.

In regards to the thread, I had to change plans 2 years ago preemptive strike, as I had a "cadillac plan. Not sure how things work now though.

I thinks it's total BS, that there are these exemptions from it.