USS Liberty

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Steel_Tomb

If the ship had been ID'd as a US ship, why in gods name would the IAF attack it??? Sorry if I'm missing something (I haven't had the time to read the thread in its entirety), but it seems very strange that the IAF would attack a ship they couldn't ID without much thought about it.

Hours passed between the initial ID and the actual attack. The actual attack was in response hours later to Israeli ground forced being attacked and it was misassumed that some/all of the incoming fire was coming from the sea. As per above, it was also assumed that the ship identified as American had long disappeared by now. There was simply a total disconnect between morning and afternoon events.

This is all tragic and incompetent but that's what all the documentation from original US and Israeli military sources points to.
[quote]

They could have sent in boarding vessels quite easily, with fighter protection should the vessel prove to be hostile. Its just common sence and proper military planning.

Not after IDF ground forced in El Arish were being attacked at that time, not with the assumption that the same US ship would no longer be there, and not with the mistaken ID of the incoming fighter jets, who were flying much higher and faster than the early morning Israeli recon planes.
[quote]

The US has a very keen interest in the state of Israel, and I would have thought the top brass in the IAF and the rest of the Israrli military would have been on the look out of US ships in the med.

Not that close. In fact, the Liberty wasn't supposed to approach within 100 miles of the coastline, in order to avoid the risk of entering an active confrontation area. And that is why - again and again - Israel assumed that it was normal for a US ship to possibly get that close but it wouldn't hang around for half a day.

Although I understand your just supporting your country,

I support the facts.

I'm also a US citizen and I support the United States. This whole conspiracy stinks and does not benefit either country, which makes a lot of other people more than happy to keep on supporting the conspiracy, with full disregard of the facts and of the opinions of experienced military professionals on both sides of the ocean, based on the documentation and historical precedents. This should never have gotten this far.

as I would support the UK, theres no need to go on the defensive and just ignore any other viewpoint than your own.

You have a lot of nerve. I haven't ignored anything said here. In fact, I did just the opposite, sighting documentation to disprove or explain practically ever claim that's been made on this thread so far.

Now ask yourself what made you accuse me of ignoring others viewpoints?

I don't mean to be offensive

But you were. Too late.

And with that, I close off another day of having to deal with one of the latest blood libels against my people. Yes, that's what it is - a blood libel - plain and simple.

[Steel_Tomb]

Like I said, I haven't had the time to read the entire thread, so may have missed some of your previous statements. I always try to see things from both sides, and it looks like a failure to ID the vessel correctly, also assuming a ship has left the area should not mean that you can get away with not ID'ing a ship. Its just not the way things are done.

I did mention that I didn't intend to offend you, and I'm sorry if I have, but I also stated that I wasn't able to read the whole thread (I'm doing Biology work) so I most likely missed out some of the stuff you put forward.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Steel_Tomb

Like I said, I haven't had the time to read the entire thread, so may have missed some of your previous statements. I always try to see things from both sides, and it looks like a failure to ID the vessel correctly, also assuming a ship has left the area should not mean that you can get away with not ID'ing a ship. Its just not the way things are done.

I did mention that I didn't intend to offend you, and I'm sorry if I have, but I also stated that I wasn't able to read the whole thread (I'm doing Biology work) so I most likely missed out some of the stuff you put forward.

Arg! Let's wipe the slate clean.

This tragedy is the result of definite incopitence and hasty military procedures along with a series of immediate events during the heat of a war, in a battle arena. That's what it boils down to. That's what the documentation from all sides shows. That's what has happened in numerous friendly fire incidents that took place both before and after the Liberty incident, including cases where much more sophisticated equipment and communications were involved.

[Happy Times]

And with that, I close off another day of having to deal with one of the latest blood libels against my people. Yes, that's what it is - a blood libel - plain and simple.

So you dont eat babies?




Joking..:rotfl:


And the Khiam incident was investigated well by the FDF. If there would have been any doubts they would have not send a batallion to Lebanon after the war. Even though i personally dont see any point in sending them anyway.

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Hours passed between the initial ID and the actual attack. The actual attack was in response hours later to Israeli ground forced being attacked and it was misassumed that some/all of the incoming fire was coming from the sea. As per above, it was also assumed that the ship identified as American had long disappeared by now. There was simply a total disconnect between morning and afternoon events.

Perhaps the Israel forces had a shift change in those few hours or the request for permission to bomb the USS Liberty may have had to come from a much higher authority and I don't mean God.

Mistakes happen is very true ... I'm still alive and my fellow shipmates from the Liberty are dead.

Makes life more precious when I think of all the extra years I have had.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by geetrue

or the request for permission to bomb the USS Liberty may have had to come from a much higher authority and I don't mean God.

Yet there's not a shred of evidence or a word of testimony of a single witness involved that even hints of this.

And that's what whipped-out-of-thin-air conspiracies are all about.

[bradclark1]

never said that Israel didn't do the jamming. Would jamming an assumed opponent's communications during an attack be out of the ordinary?

They were jamming American frequencies. Why would they jam American frequencies unless they knew the ship was American. They did not jam Eygyptian frequencies.

Why? Aren't many military ships worldwide numbered? And if they aren't, is that general knowledge?

Show me middle eastern ships at that time that had numbers. Not only was the Eygyptian navy miniscule(5?) but Israel had for sometime tracked their ships(I read that in a 6 Day War book.) plus had spies where in fact one person during that timeframe was executed for spying on their navy.

As I mentioned, "this person", as you prefer to leave him a nameless entity,

I didn't and don't care what his name is. I'm just interested in what he's saying.

But obviously he's just a nobody, a traitorous American naval servicemen, with ulterior motives to offend his fellow navymen and country. Yep. That must be it.

Nope I didn't attack him or Cristol either. I just think they are wrong. I didn't say anything about being a traitor or having ulterior motives. All I meant is what I said, that one comment sets the tone for his argument.

If you would, for a change, bother reading Dr. Nowicki's documentation, you would know that Dr. Nowicki's involvement began in picking up IAF voice communications on the completion of the aerial attack and thereafter.

That is what I more or less said. The communications were from just the helicopters. You know and I know that commo was intercepted from the helicopters after the attack. Why would I need to keep saying it? No communications were used by the recon plane nor fighters. Why would that be? I've read the communications documentation probably more than you have.

I'll tell you my thoughts on this conspiracy theory . I don't think it was an attack by Israel as a goverment per se. I think it was directed by person/persons unknown(Dyan?) for whatever reason I don't know.

with full disregard of the facts and of the opinions of experienced military professionals on both sides of the ocean

Your version of facts are different than my version of facts or should I say interpreted differently.

[bradclark1]

And with that, I close off another day of having to deal with one of the latest blood libels against my people. Yes, that's what it is - a blood libel - plain and simple.

Is that aimed at me?

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

They were jamming American frequencies. Why would they jam American frequencies unless they knew the ship was American. They did not jam Eygyptian frequencies.

Please document this. They were jamming voice frequencies. How do you know that the jamming didn't cover a very wide swath of frequencies, which also included the Liberty's?

Once again, if it's so obvious, why isn't this pointed out as such by any of the inquiries? It should have been very easy for communication experts to have pointed this out. There were no lack of them yet no one makes any such claim.

You're obviously an expert. What are your qualification in radio communications?

Show me middle eastern ships at that time that had numbers. Not only was the Eygyptian navy miniscule(5?)

Pilots were scrambled up in the air on the assumption of an attack. Did they have a recognition manual with them? Did they have time to look at it under the assumed circumstances of ground forces under naval attack? Did these pilots have any reason to assume there was anything down there but an Egyptian ship?

but Israel had for sometime tracked their ships(I read that in a 6 Day War book.) plus had spies where in fact one person during that timeframe was executed for spying on their navy.

And that made these individual pilots just how much more aware of the ID of the ship they saw below? Having accurate intel doesn't mean that every pilot or officer in the entire military is aware of the details. How could you even draw such a conclusion?

I didn't and don't care what his name is.

Correct. That is what I assumed. Persons who were witness at the time who don't parrot the conspiracy fantasies are deemed irrelevant.

Nope I didn't attack him or Cristol either. I just think they are wrong.

Based on wishful thinking and whether the flag blew this way or that way and in total disregard for every single transcripts for all sides involved and without a shred of evidence that anyone authorized this attack with criminal intent.

Classic kangaroo court, Mr. Kangaroo.

That is what I more or less said. The communications were from just the helicopters. You know and I know that commo was intercepted from the helicopters after the attack. Why would I need to keep saying it? No communications were used by the recon plane nor fighters. Why would that be? I've read the communications documentation probably more than you have.

Once again (2nd time? 3rd time? 4th? I've lost track), read the transcripts on this page for NSA recordings 104 and 105.

I'll tell you my thoughts on this conspiracy theory . I don't think it was an attack by Israel as a goverment per se. I think it was directed by person/persons unknown(Dyan?) for whatever reason I don't know.

Magical, mystical, wonderful................................

But of course, the evil pirate with the eyepatch! Just like in the movies! Oops - he had 2 legs.

Guess, guess, guess! Why not?! So what if it's baseless!

Your version of facts are different than my version of facts or should I say interpreted differently.

Nope. Mine are both documented, factually pointing out the errors of the accusers and showing actual military precedents where such tragedies have happened throughout modern military history up until the most recent times.

Really gotta go!

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

Is that aimed at me?

Nope. Some of the people whose claims you promote. The conspiracy is a libel. BTW, search around and you'll find a number of crewmembers and their general asusmptions about Israel and Jews.

Bye! Really!

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Arg! Let's wipe the slate clean.

This tragedy is the result of definite incopitence and hasty military procedures along with a series of immediate events during the heat of a war, in a battle arena. That's what it boils down to. That's what the documentation from all sides shows. That's what has happened in numerous friendly fire incidents that took place both before and after the Liberty incident, including cases where much more sophisticated equipment and communications were involved.

Personally speaking, I'd settle for that

[bradclark1]

Please document this. They were jamming voice frequencies. How do you know that the jamming didn't cover a very wide swath of frequencies, which also included the Liberty's?

I would assume the commander would know what he was talking about. Some bearing on this being a Signit ship and all. The aircraft carrier also reported jamming. It's in those reorts you like throwing around but some reason you don't read yourself.The high command voice circuit regardless of frequency. Do I need to translate that for you?

Once again, if it's so obvious, why isn't this pointed out as such by any of the inquiries? It should have been very easy for communication experts to have pointed this out. There were no lack of them yet no one makes any such claim.

If you read the NSA report which I'm beginning to think you haven't read squat it's on page 28.

You're obviously an expert. What are your qualification in radio communications?

I talked on them a lot.

Pilots were scrambled up in the air on the assumption of an attack. Did they have a recognition manual with them? Did they have time to look at it under the assumed circumstances of ground forces under naval attack? Did these pilots have any reason to assume there was anything down there but an Egyptian ship?

Exactly what would an assumed Egyptian cargo ship use to fire rounds 10 plus miles? The planes weren't taken under fire. What was this hurry?
The actual El Quseir did have a 3" gun on it and the maximum range would be about 6km which is a little over three miles.

Having accurate intel doesn't mean that every pilot or officer in the entire military is aware of the details. How could you even draw such a conclusion?

Thats why they call it intelligence.

Correct. That is what I assumed. Persons who were witness at the time who don't parrot the conspiracy fantasies are deemed irrelevant.

Why don't you quote the whole block.

I didn't and don't care what his name is. I'm just interested in what he's saying.

Comes across a little differently now doesn't it?

Once again (2nd time? 3rd time? 4th? I've lost track), read the transcripts on this page for NSA recordings 104 and 105.

You are beginng to look silly. I think you need to put your glasses on again.

That is what I more or less said. The communications were from just the helicopters. You know and I know that commo was intercepted from the helicopters after the attack. Why would I need to keep saying it? No communications were used by the recon plane nor fighters. Why would that be? I've read the communications documentation probably more than you have.

What don't you understand? I'm saying the only intercepted communications was helicopter communications. I don't even know what you are arguing about. Their control is guiding them or it's helicopter to helicopter. What is the problem? You can also read page 34/35 on the NSA report.

Based on wishful thinking and whether the flag blew this way or that way and in total disregard for every single transcripts for all sides involved and without a shred of evidence that anyone authorized this attack with criminal intent.
Classic kangaroo court, Mr. Kangaroo.

The reports ask's more questions then it answers. I'm amplifing those questions. Try reading the transcripts before you try quoting them.

Magical, mystical, wonderful................................
But of course, the evil pirate with the eyepatch! Just like in the movies! Oops - he had 2 legs.
Guess, guess, guess! Why not?! So what if it's baseless!

All you are doing is assuming Cristol and Nowicki are clearing Israel but you haven't even read any reports that they've put out because if you had you wouldn't be making some of the comments you're making because the information is right there.

Nope. Mine are both documented, factually pointing out the errors of the accusers and showing actual military precedents where such tragedies have happened throughout modern military history up until the most recent times.

What errors? I've answered every comment you have made with facts and all you do is answer garbage (like the above). The tragedy was intentional or unintentional? I say intentional but not condoned by the Israeli goverment.

I seem to be coming across as agressive. Not meant to be kind of.