Mass stabbing in central London leaves woman dead and six injured

I know that there is no such thing as a single Islamic 'ideology'. Something which is readily apparent to anyone who can read a newspaper, never mind a history book.

[Feuer Frei!]

Ideology - a set of beliefs
Authority - the right to give orders etc

I don't understand what that has to do with the rebuttal of your opinion that the Qu'ran isn't suffient in itself to discuss the islamic faith.

Considering it is the ONLY thing in the islamic faith.

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

I know that there is no such thing as a single Islamic 'ideology'. Something which is readily apparent to anyone who can read a newspaper, never mind a history book.

Which doesn't change the fact that Islam is whatever the Quran says it is.
And you, again, call others stupid, which I slowly but surely really start to dislike.

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Ideology - a set of beliefs
Authority - the right to give orders etc

I don't understand what that has to do with the rebuttal of your opinion that the Qu'ran isn't suffient in itself to discuss the islamic faith.

I know what an ideology is thank you - I have a degree in anthropology. I also know that saying that something exists isn't proof that it does - something readily apparent to anyone with even a basic level of education.

And you haven't answered my question: do you think that reading the Bible would be sufficient to understand the Taiping Rebellion?

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

I know what an ideology is thank you - I have a degree in anthropology

You may well do sir, however your use of the word in your last post seems to have been misplaced, since it has absolutely nothing to do with the Qu'ran being the absolute authority in islam and you offered your opinion which declared that the Qu'ran wasn't sufficient in debating a faith, islamic in this case, to which i pointed out you were wrong.
If you still disageree with my assessment of your opinion being wrong then i suggest you study the definition of authority, the Qu'ran and perhaps the purpose and contents of the Qu'ran and its hold in the islamic world.

I also know that saying that something exists isn't proof that it does - something readily apparent to anyone with even a basic level of education

Where did this come from?

Unless now you are questioning the islamic faith in the Qu'ran?
We are discussing now the sufficiency or as you seem to opine, the insufficency of the Qu'ran, no?

If you want to discuss the contents of the Qu'ran and wether the Islamists believe what is written in the Qu'ran, then you should have said this and we can debate that, although that would bear little fruit, since the Qu'ran is the Authority in the islamic world.

And you haven't answered my question: do you think that reading the Bible would be sufficient to understand the Taiping Rebellion?

I haven't answered it because this is the first time you have asked me this question.

Do you remember what you even post sometimes?

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Which doesn't change the fact that Islam is whatever the Quran says it is.
And you, again, call others stupid, which I slowly but surely really start to dislike.

And Christianity is whatever the Bible says it is? Or is there something magical about the Quran which makes its words transparent, unambiguous and devoid of alternative interpretations? If a Muslim told me that, I could understand it as an assertion of faith (without accepting it of course), but it seems an odd claim for an infidel to be making. The simple fact is that from the day the words were first written down, Islamic scholars have been debating what exactly it means.

Incidentally, only a small minority of Muslims consider the Quran to be the sole authority on Islam - most also include the sunnah, which is likewise the subject of much debate (not least because Sunni and Shia Muslims disagree over what texts are included).

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

And Christianity is whatever the Bible says it is? Or is there something magical about the Quran which makes its words transparent, unambiguous and devoid of alternative interpretations? If a Muslim told me that, I could understand it as an assertion of faith (without accepting it of course), but it seems an odd claim for an infidel to be making. The simple fact is that from the day the words were first written down, Islamic scholars have been debating what exactly it means.

Incidentally, only a small minority of Muslims consider the Quran to be the sole authority on Islam - most also include the sunnah, which is likewise the subject of much debate (not least because Sunni and Shia Muslims disagree over what texts are included).

in several places the Qu'ran challenges the unbelievers:

And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it (min mithlihi) and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers. S. 2:23-24

Or do they say: He has forged it? Say: Then bring a chapter like this (mithlihi) and invite whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. S. 10:38


Or, do they say: He has forged it. Say: Then bring ten forged chapters like it (mithlihi) and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. S. 11:13


Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran (bimithlihi hatha al-Qurani), they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others. S. 17:88


Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe. Then let them bring an announcement like it (mithlihi) if they are truthful. S. 52:33-34




Based on these verses, Muslims are convinced that the Quran is absolutely unique and unparalleled


Happy reading AndyJWest,



Muhammad challenges the unbelievers to bring a book which is not only a better guide than the Quran, but also better than the book of Moses!

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

And Christianity is whatever the Bible says it is?

I was wondering how long it might take you to bring up apples when we talk oranges...

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Or is there something magical about the Quran which makes its words transparent, unambiguous and devoid of alternative interpretations? If a Muslim told me that, I could understand it as an assertion of faith (without accepting it of course), but it seems an odd claim for an infidel to be making. The simple fact is that from the day the words were first written down, Islamic scholars have been debating what exactly it means.

You're generalizing this issue for the whole Quran, which is wrong.
The Quran surely has passages that are open for interpretation, of course.
However, when an ideology follows a book blindly that clearly calls out for its minions to conquer and murder, the case is pretty much closed for me and no further "debates" between whomever are needed.

Our civilization, the most advanced on the planet, has to start to protect itself from religious zealots who live their lives after a ridiculous belief system, invented for the purpose of suppression and exploitation.

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Incidentally, only a small minority of Muslims consider the Quran to be the sole authority on Islam...

Bingo!
This is getting better and better.
You know, unfortunately, western intelligence agencies and many studies conducted over the past years disagree heavily with you.
This was mentioned in the all purpose terrorism thread ages ago, multiple times, with proof, sources, etc.
Would you consider changing your opinion on the "small minority" if sources would be provided? I'm asking in advance so I won't waste my time... again.
Also: Where are your numbers regarding the "small minority"?

Boy, did you just poke the bear...

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Yes and in several places the Qu'ran challenges the unbelievers:

And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it (min mithlihi) and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers. S. 2:23-24

Or do they say: He has forged it? Say: Then bring a chapter like this (mithlihi) and invite whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. S. 10:38


Or, do they say: He has forged it. Say: Then bring ten forged chapters like it (mithlihi) and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. S. 11:13


Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran (bimithlihi hatha al-Qurani), they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others. S. 17:88


Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe. Then let them bring an announcement like it (mithlihi) if they are truthful. S. 52:33-34




Based on these verses, Muslims are convinced that the Quran is absolutely unique and unparalleled


Happy reading AndyJWest,



Muhammad challenges the unbelievers to bring a book which is not only a better guide than the Quran, but also better than the book of Moses!

None of which is in any way evidence that Muslims actually share a common ideology beyond believing in the abstract that the Quran contains Truth. Like any other text, it is open to multiple interpretations. Interpretations that have divided Islam more than they have unified it. Holy books tend to do that.

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

I was wondering how long it might take you to bring up apples when we talk oranges...


You're generalizing this issue for the whole Quran, which is wrong.
The Quran surely has passages that are open for interpretation, of course.
However, when an ideology follows a book blindly that clearly calls out for its minions to conquer and murder, the case is pretty much closed for me and no further "debates" between whomever are needed.

Our civilization, the most advanced on the planet, has to start to protect itself from religious zealots who live their lives after a ridiculous belief system, invented for the purpose of suppression and exploitation.


Bingo!
This is getting better and better.
You know, unfortunately, western intelligence agencies and many studies conducted over the past years disagree heavily with you.
This was mentioned in the all purpose terrorism thread ages ago, multiple times, with proof, sources, etc.
Would you consider changing your opinion on the "small minority" if sources would be provided? I'm asking in advance so I won't waste my time... again.
Also: Where are your numbers regarding the "small minority"?

Boy, did you just poke the bear...

Please cite sources which state that 'western intelligence agencies' don't consider sunnah "the verbally transmitted record of the teachings, deeds and sayings, silent permissions (or disapprovals) of the Islamic prophet Muhammad" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunnah as significant source texts for majority Islam. Good luck with that...

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

None of which is in any way evidence that Muslims actually share a common ideology beyond believing in the abstract that the Quran contains Truth. Like any other text, it is open to multiple interpretations. Interpretations that have divided Islam more than they have unified it. Holy books tend to do that.

The Qu'ran teaches that these scriptures are genuinely the Word of God and upholds their integrity and authority.

It still does not change the fact that it is the only authority.

[Feuer Frei!]

What are you saying?

The Hadith is the second authority to islam, the first being Qu'ran.

This is widely known

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

The Qu'ran teaches that these scriptures are genuinely the Word of God and upholds their integrity and authority.

It still does not change the fact that it is the only authority.

It does not change the fact that it is open to interpretation. Multiple interpretations, which have divided Islam. If there was only one possible interpretation, there would be no Sunni-Shia split, and none of the further fragmentations. No book is incapable of being read more than one way. That's the way with books.

And again, it isn't the only authority for the majority of Muslims. Do a little research on sunnah - even Wikipedia explains the basics.

[Feuer Frei!]

Sunnah is the second islamic source after the Qu'ran.

But still not the second authority!

Hadith is.

The Qu'ran is divine, 'uncorruptable'

Quran gives the commands/laws (authority) sunnah executes/practices the commands/laws.

You tell me which one is the authority.

Pretty clear, as it has always been.

No wiki leak or further education required.

You base your whole debate on the sunnah being the most widely-followed.

It leads to disaster for you.

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Sunnah is the second islamic source after the Qu'ran.

The Qu'ran is divine, 'uncorruptable'

Quran gives the commands/laws (authority) sunnah executes/practices the commands/laws.

You tell me which one is the authority.

Pretty clear, as it has always been.

No wiki leak or further education required.

You base your whole debate on the sunnah being the most widely-followed.

It leads to disaster for you.

No. The Quran is considered divine and incorruptible by Muslims. Who then go on to disagree over its meaning. It doesn't contain magic words that make everyone who reads it think exactly the same thing, any more that the Bible does. Or Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban does for that matter. Books are written by people, read by people and interpreted by people. And different people read them different ways. This is true regardless of whether the person reading it thinks it is written by Allah or by J. K. Rowling. There is nothing magical about the book that makes it different from any other. It contains no single 'ideology' because the people who read it interpret it according to their own prior ideas and experience. Though why I should have to point out this self-evident fact to anyone claiming to be even remotely familiar with the history of Islam is almost beyond understanding.