Burn Witches! Burn!

[Faamecanic]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

It is - and it's a fruitless topic IMO

Here goes robbo with the "self" flogging again

<<<---- hands robo the cat'o'nine tails.....

[Faamecanic]

Originally Posted by JScones

Yes, you've said this a few times, but I'm curious to hear what your logical rationale is, apart from a tenuous analogy.

See, for someone to say that the devs are "not to blame" must mean that they consider the devs to be dumb Lemmings that did exclusively what they were told to do by "the suits"TM. Yet I can't imagine a gang of Ubisoft France people standing over the shoulder of the devs saying "type this, remove that, change this", can you? Heck, I reckon most of Ubisoft France would have no idea about the intricacies of U-boat warfare. Why would they?

See, I think the devs are actually smarter than that. I give them credit. I don't think they are robots at all. I think they had a level of autonomy to influence design and content - and if Alex's blog view is an indication of how he managed SH5, then I am sure of it.

So, let's look at what I mean by "level of autonomy". That would imply that they had some input, pitched a concept, an idea. Heck, they had to convince Ubisoft France in the first place, and as Dan said himself, Ubisoft didn't have to agree to do another SH game. This statement by one of the team leads alone demonstrates that the devs had at least some autonomy over the design and content.

Now, autonomy means control. With control comes responsibility. With responsibility comes accountability.

So all it would take for the devs to be part of the "blamestorming" would be one autonomous, heck even semi-autonomous, decision made by the PM, the team leads or even the team. Essentially ANY decision THEY made that affected the final product.

Or are you maintaining that the devs were mere Lemmings that sat there making no decisions at all and simply typed only what Ubisoft France told them to? If so, then I think that's more offensive to their intelligence than simply saying they suxxors. At least in the latter case their creative input is being acknowledged, even if not favourably. You're simply failing to acknowledge it at all. In fact, by not attributing any blame to the devs, you are essentially saying that all the GOOD parts of the game are the handiwork of Ubisoft France as well. I mean, you're not trying to say that the bad stuff is the fault of "the suits"TM yet the good stuff is the result of the devs, are you? Because it doesn't work that way.

Anyway, it's all moot. I don't care who's to blame. As long as Ubisoft (collective) fixes it, that's all that really matters. Let the blamestorming happen behind the Ubisoft boardroom doors, if they even feel it necessary, is what I say.

What we do know for sure though is that after reviews like PC Gamer's, mud will stick to everyone involved in SH5.

BTW Flopper, I'm a program director. Started life as a software engineer and worked up. I've been in the shoes of both the devs and the suits. After 12 years or project managing I think I have a bit of an idea how projects work.

Well said JS....well said.

And I agree with you...if IN THE END....UBI gives the Devs the money and time to FIX SH5... then its all good.

The shoddy release will still leave a black eye on UBI and Devs...even with a patch. You know..the whole "First Impressions" sayinig....

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by Faamecanic

Here goes robbo with the "self" flogging again

<<<---- hands robo the cat'o'nine tails.....

Ta matey

No-one listens to me anyway lol.

[609_Avatar]

Well, I don't think giving some blame to the devs is stabbing them in the back. How should we support them? By buying the game no matter what? By praising them no matter the condition of the game? I personally think both are to blame, as Dan himself has stated. You can't separate the two. It's the same company with different jobs but both had their hands in the final product and share the "blame" for the state the game is in. Of course, all IMHO.

[John Channing]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

Ta matey

No-one listens to me anyway lol.

I'm sorry... did you say something? I wasn't listening.

JCC

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by John Channing

I'm sorry... did you say something? I wasn't listening.

JCC

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[IanC]

Originally Posted by 609_Avatar

Well, I don't think giving some blame to the devs is stabbing them in the back. How should we support them? By buying the game no matter what? By praising them no matter the condition of the game? I personally think both are to blame, as Dan himself has stated. You can't separate the two. It's the same company with different jobs but both had their hands in the final product and share the "blame" for the state the game is in. Of course, all IMHO.

That's right, we keep forgetting about Dan's own statement on the matter.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by IanC

Ok I've seen a few of these "I've met Dan in person..." comments from different members. I'm assuming you guys talked in depth about game development. You're not saying the devs can do no wrong just because you've had a beer with the guy, right?

No, no one is suggesting the devs can do no wrong, even Dan would be the first to admit when they fall short. Game development is not easy. Nit picking and ill-informed rants are easy. That's why they're so common.

[JScones]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

No, no one is suggesting the devs can do no wrong, even Dan would be the first to admit when they fall short.

No need to even speculate on that one, Neal. As a few people have already pointed out in this thread, Dan stuck up his hand on the official day of release acknowledging his contribution to the "failures of SH5" (his words). While he can't be considered the dev team's voice of authority (something people here seem to continually forget; only Alex or his representative can speak on behalf of the entire dev team), it's pretty clear that, fortunately for us, at least one of the dev team leads has accepted responsibility for their role in the melodrama called SH5. Hard then for anyone else to argue that the devs were blameless, eh?

And isn't it much more refreshing reading something like "Yes, we stuffed up, now let us fix it", than "Us? No, it's all someone else's fault, take it up with them <points in the direction of France>"? I may not think highly of SH5, but I always think highly of anyone who admits when they were wrong, and even moreso if they commit to an action plan to fix it.

[IanC]

Originally Posted by IanC

Ok I've seen a few of these "I've met Dan in person..." comments from different members. I'm assuming you guys talked in depth about game development. You're not saying the devs can do no wrong just because you've had a beer with the guy, right?

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

No, no one is suggesting the devs can do no wrong, even Dan would be the first to admit when they fall short. Game development is not easy. Nit picking and ill-informed rants are easy. That's why they're so common.

Yes of course, but I just want to say that "can do no wrong" was meant as a figure of speech, not to be taken literally.

[limkol]

We are all in the same boat. We are all p*ssed off about something or other about the game. Me too. This patch thing isn't helping to make things better. Too little too late, maybe. But thank God for the good modders.

I understand people's disappointment, hatred of compulsory internet connection, stupid almost comical mistakes etc etc. I could go on but it's all been said before.

I hate businesses not taking notice of their customers. But I know that there are also businesses that don't take notice of their employees. I don't know if this is the case with Ubisoft. But in defence of Dan, I have to say that the very fact that he is a member of this forum....and we know his name....is positive. And before you ask, yes I have met him. I've not had a beer with him. But he did seem genuinely interested in u-boats and the game. Make up your own minds.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that the direction Ubisoft has taken is a scandal. Lack of communication = lack of respect for their loyal customers. Just wish there was more competition in the u-boat sim market.

But I'll still play the game....but I'm checking out the mod workshop to get improvements for the game. The worst thing about this patch delay is, the fact that the modders might have to make their mods again when the new patch finally comes out. It's them I feel most sorry for....the UNPAID UNOFFICIAL developers of the game....the modders.

that's just my 50 cents.

[Cohaagen]

Originally Posted by Flopper

Blaming devs for the shortcomings of a product is about like blaming soldiers for losing a battle.

Worst analogy/attempt at profundity/metaphor ever? Can it be matched?

I'm only kidding, of course - blaming me for this post is like blaming people who think up something and post it on the internet.

Subsim will eat itself.





PS: I blame the cleaners, myself.

[Jimbuna]

I'm sorry, I think (but the repitition is quite......entertaining)

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by JScones

t I always think highly of anyone who admits when they were wrong, and even moreso if they commit to an action plan to fix it.

My dad taught me that when I was growing up. He said everyone is going to make a mistake in life - the measure of a man is what he does afterwards.