Terrorist attack in Paris on French magazine

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by STEED

Not 10 days into the new year, evil is rampant and will get worst.

We are still in just the middle of the first third of the new Islamic attempt to spread into the remaining world.

Two and a half thirds still to be played for the coming two generations or so.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

I wish these threads would stop getting so screwed up.

Part of me wants the GT forum to be deleted, so we can focus on talking about submarines. That's why we're here, right?

GT is only a mirror of the people who post here. If that bothers you, simply do not click on the forum link.

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

I think when this sort of debate comes up about Islam, people forget something vital: a lot of Muslims don't actually follow Islam to the letter.

After all, Islam is a violent religion, but a lot of Muslims aren't violent people. If terrorists represented the majority of Muslims, wouldn't every Muslim be trying to kill as many non-Muslims as possible?

Most people know this, but many get emotional in these situations and overlook that many Muslims, like many Jews and Christians, do not subscribe to the more violent aspects of their religion. It's a good thing to remind them frequently. But then again:

We're too scared to face Islam and walk on our tiptoes out of fear. We treat no other religion like this....because we fear moderates will go radical. The fact we fear so much moderates will go radical only proves how moderate they are....not so much.

That makes a lot of sense. It would be really helpful if Good Muslims would lead the fight against the Evil Muslims, instead of waiting for the US & Europe to do it. Of course, they fight when the bad guys show up in their village, but maybe we need to draft a Muslim anti-fascist army from the US and Europe, all Muslim men, and send them over to jihad the extremists....

Originally Posted by Oberon

I guess that since I do not believe in answering extremism with extremism or violence with violence that I am weak, socialist, communist, European, reasonophobic, Errr...have I missed any of the usual terms treated as derogatory around here? Gun-hating perhaps?
That's fine, I've spent just as long as Skybird defending my beliefs and trying, trying to teach tolerance, understanding and love to a crowd which doesn't believe in any of that. That's fine, if people want to live in fear and hated, and become as bitter and angry as the people they claim to be fighting, then I guess that is their choice. With any luck I'll be long dead before the consequences of such limited thought come into play.

No one here is living in fear and hatred, don't go overboard with the hyperbole. But we do see a widespread problem that needs to be addressed.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

That sounds like Catholicism.
Come to think of it if you take the writings of that person on the hate site Rockstar linked to yesterday its his arguement why Episcopalians should shift to eastern orthodoxy due to the liberalisation of the Anglican church leadership.

It was interesting to see yesterday the arab league, all the muslim governments and the top theology school of sunni islam condemn the attackers...while the conservative US based catholic league condemned the cartoonists.

I don't see Catholics or any religion much better, but least they reformed themselves enough they fit in with the modern age. Reformed religions will follow the rule of law through govt. over their religion. I don't fear being murdered in mass by common religions, a nut may arise, but not entire nations of terrorist..

The big question for Islam is reformation. The religion itself keeps people in mass poverty in Islamic ran states, thus they are easily indoctrinated. It's a religion with a poor economic model. If the people advance in science, world literature, industry and technology in mass, they would join the rest of modern humanity eventually. Any state run by religion, worse, one religion, will always result in failure.

France will soon look like Turkey as Turkey looks more like Iran. France allows Sharia courts, does everything to appease the Muslims at the expense of freedom and equality. With possibly 1000's joining ISIS from Europe, that tells you their mindset, murder of children, ethic slaughter, heads off, and they are coming back home...Enjoy your cameras on every corner, they will only show you the aftermath. Soon you'll see why we in America refuse to give up our guns..

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Armistead

France will soon look like Turkey as Turkey looks more like Iran. France allows Sharia courts, does everything to appease the Muslims at the expense of freedom and equality.

Stop being wrong.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...n-rights-court

Soon you'll see why we in America refuse to give up our guns..

Let's try to keep the cesspool threads to one grotty topic at a time.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Let's try to keep the cesspool threads to one grotty topic at a time.

Hey hey, that kind of verbage makes things better?

[Betonov]

Love the French flag at the top of the page, nice one Neal

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Oberon

That's fine, I've spent just as long as Skybird defending my beliefs and trying, trying to teach tolerance, understanding and love to a crowd which doesn't believe in any of that. That's fine, if people want to live in fear and hated, and become as bitter and angry as the people they claim to be fighting, then I guess that is their choice. With any luck I'll be long dead before the consequences of such limited thought come into play.

I will speak for myself only.

When I hear about terrorists attacking and killing innocents I dont become filled with hatred towards a whole group of people. However I do become angry, frustrated ,coupled with a touch of helplessness over the particular incident. And I most certainly do not live in fear because of it either taking no extra precaution. I simply continue to lead a sensible productive life. If you must know what I really fear it's high tides, skyrocketing price of a good steak and gettting overun by tree rats.

But, if what happened in France happened in my neigbhorhood I can assure everyone here I will not be taking a video of murders killing innocents. Given the chance I will without hesitation splatter their brains all over creation and not lose a bit of sleep. Thats how pissed off I am right now.

Not 'pissed' but 'pissed off' big difference you know

[Skybird]

aIf its true what I read - that the police officer shot today was a Muslim female - then this most likely is a terror attack motivated by religion as well, for that woman deserved death for having put herself above the rule and role that Muhammad's teachings have forseen for females. Also, she would be seen as being guilty of cooperating with then enemy. Her duty would have been to stay at home, hidden from the world, and giving birth to new generations of future jihadist warrior.

Some weeks ago, I thin k I mentioned it in some thread somewhere, there was a report about German attempts to get closer to Muslim communities by having more Muslim migrants joining the police. The thing backfires all too often, however, especially in the big cities with huge Muslim communities. There Muslims policeman give feedback that they are hated even more by their likes than native German police officers, because as Muslims with migration background their communities all too often expect them to put their Muslim being above their loyalty to the law and the state (something that Islam absolutely demands: that the loyalty to Islam ranks higher than laws and state membership and nationalities). Many of these migrant police officer live in fear for their own spouses, because they get threatened as well, and in their work on the street when being confronted by Muslim crowds the take even more fire and anger, than native German police officers.

So much for politician's claims that having more Muslim police officers would contribute to the mediating effort towards 'Muslims.

Needless to say: no other religious group and no other migrant group gets this special consideration.

Somebody above again mentions not all Muslims are terrorists. How often again this dud of an argument? I insist on declaring Islam a totalitarian, barbaric, hostile ideology, and if somebody doe snot follow it to the letter, then he is not really a follower of it. Or he only pays lip-confessions when saying he is loyal to Western standards and the secular fundament of our society, which also is a very popular hobby in Muslim communities (taqquiya and all that). The real Muslim is who follows the teachings of Muhammad, and these are such that they leave nothing to be desired to point out their draconic content and intention. Like the real Christian is not necessarily the one attending a church mass on December 24th, but the one who indeed follows the teachings of Christ as told in the New Gospels. And as I already told before: the Germans for the most did not intend or committed themselves to killing Jews with their own individual hands, nevertheless it were the Germans who had this thing called Nazism and Third Reich, and there is no excuse to say that the disaster unfolding were not one of German responsibility. Not every German killed a Jew. Still, the holocaust happened, and it was Germany.

It often makes little sense if some Muslim says he were Muslim if he does not follow basic, elementary principles that define Islam to actually be "Islam". He is an apostate then who does not want to confess his apostacy, or is not aware of it (because full understanding of the full range of Islam is far less spread amongst Muslims than you may take for granted). However: the "apostate" talking ncie of Islam nevertheless paves the way for Islam itself by helping to give it a better reputation, and by that he eases the oath for the real Musalims - that are the ones that Westerners suually think os Islamists and radicals (as if there could have been a difference between Nazis and "Nazissis"). The Western self-deceptions know no limits here, it seems, everything gets desperately believed if it promises an option to think nicer of Islam in an attempt to maintain the illusion that Islam is not at war with all other cultures in the world. But it is, and always has been. A long chain of crushed cultures and submitted kingdoms and empires that it destroyed in the past 13 centuries, speak volumes. The drastic persecution and mass killings of infidels in many M;uslim countries gives further evidence for the relevance of these ideological implications and their motivational effects. Or one asks Muslim clerics and lobbyists about whether Islam is good or bad - what does one expect a Muslim cleric will say, eh? Do you expect an objective answer when asking the Vatikan about the disputable role of a corrupt church in the centuries of the past?

You cannot ignore the ideology and claim that what remains still is Islam. It is something different. Call it anything, but not Islam.

And btw, I said that on earlier occasions, too, it makes no sense if yo meet a man claiming to be a Nazi, and you see him supporting multiculturalism and helping Jews, engaging himself for libertarianism and humanism and defending the right of free speech and speaking out against censorship. Such man may insist on being seen as a Nazi. Nevertheless, he is somebody with an intellectual problem, and a Nazi he certainly is not, no matter his desire to be seen as one. But if you take his misled claim about himself for the truth, when you take his example in deeds as being representative for Nazism because he claims he is a Nazi, then you have a big problem: you legitimise Nazism on the ground of totally wrong and inappropriate assumptions about what Nazism is and wants: you then start to defend Nazism, thinking it were about free speech, multiculturalism, humanism and libertarianism. Now tell me - how clever is that...???

Stop being disgusted by criticism and critics of Islam - you better should start to be disgusted by Islam.

Stop being worried about the self-victimization of Muslims - better be worried about the fate of tens and hundreds of thousands and millions of non-Muslims every year who get persecuted, killed, moved, deported, driven away by Muslim wars of aggression, harassed, discriminated, disadvantaged by Muslim law, and who are withheld from freedom of speech, freedom of practicng religion, freedom to live their lives in liberty, as they want it. There are many infidelks and Muslims alike who flee from the Muslim world into the infidel West. But how many atheists and Christians flee from the West into the Muslim world...?

Stop being foolish, and submissive.

[ikalugin]

I see so you do differentiate between various groups of Muslim people. Muslim as by self identification.

Now, which percent of the Muslims (by self identification) would you view as "true" Muslims (ie conservatives)?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

I see so you do differentiate between various groups of Muslim people. Muslim as by self identification.

I differentiate on the grounds of the Quran, Sira, Shariah, Sunna. This - and only this - defines what "Muslim" is and what not. Anything else is a mistaking of names and labels. And that is why much of the atrocities committed by socalled radicals is more representative for Islam, than the soft-talking and adaptation to Western rules proclaimed by speakers of Western Muslim communities. If these would live in truly Islamic societies and countries - they would be at risk of loosing their lives for their blasphemic words. Two centuries ago, or even less, they just would be stoned in place. And in countries like Iran, this still could happen to you. Here you also have the answer to why many of the atrocities of "radical Muslims" against "ordinary Muslims" - often be given as an example of that the Islamists are not Islamic at all - are nothing controversial from ol' dude Muhammad'S point of view (he did like that himself already). Of course, this can be abused indeed, and it has been abused for sure. The slaves Muslim slave traders hunted in Africa, not rarely belonged to people and tribes that got opportunistically accused of being heretics and apostates who had fallen of the true faith. In the end, Muhammad founded this wholke rleiugous mumbojumbo only as a tool of justifying his warcrimes and predatoryx raids, and to easdily get rid of oppoosition to him be declaring the critic a heretic. And only few things could get you tortured and killed as easily in those times like a charges over claims of heresy. Well, try to bring a bible into Saudi Arabia and wonder whether the old times really are gone...


Thats why usually I attack the ideology, not a group formed of people. The self-proclaimed "Muslim" may or may not be a real Muslim by Quranic standards, I cannot know that,m and for the purpose of these disucssions it is not interesting anyway. The ideology is the problem from which all Muslim evil emits.

If i would see it differently, then I indeed would be nothing else than just a racist. But i do not attack the Arab world for being Arabic. I attack the Arab world for being Muslim. The first is about race, the second is about ideology. That makes me probably an anti-ideologist of some kind.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Hey hey, that kind of verbage makes things better?

Almost certainly not.

Apologies for tone.

[Aktungbby]

NEAL STEVENS: That makes a lot of sense. It would be really helpful if Good Muslims would lead the fight against the Evil Muslims, instead of waiting for the US & Europe to do it. Of course, they fight when the bad guys show up in their village, but maybe we need to draft a Muslim anti-fascist army from the US and Europe, all Muslim men, and send them over to jihad the extremists....

Precisely! OUT OF THE FRIGID WASTELAND...A RAY OF HOPE STANDS FORTH!! "A Minneapolis man is waging a war for young Muslims' hearts and minds from a studio thousands of miles from the Middle East.

Mohamed Ahmed has launched AverageMohamed.com. The website offers cartoon videos aimed at countering the messages terrorists use to lure disaffected youths into extremism.

Ahmed says he started his videos out of frustration. He uses bright, simple cartoons aimed at kids ages 8 to 16 and featuring an easy-to-understand message.

The 39-year-old father of four says he doesn't want his children "fighting this war."

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Armistead

That's the problem, radical and so called moderates still have much in common and it's laughable that we refer to them as moderates ...

Because Islam won't deal with it's issues within itself, the world continues to piecemeal wars every decade, not solving much, because we give up. We'll have many more big acts or terror coming and more wars because no one wants to deal with Islam....

As a group they are fragmented they are not as strong as it would seem. The radicals use fear to fuel the masses to follow their teachings to the extremes of murder and mayhem.

Those men were paid and trained to spread respect for you know who (I'm not going to say his name).

Let them stay fragmented, let them duke it out ... no doubt in my mind who the innocent victims in Israel would be if they were no longer fragmented, but wanted a capital for their (****) religion.

A new Mecca for instance, but that's another subject ...

Fear generates fear ... they want respect.

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

I think when this sort of debate comes up about Islam, people forget something vital: a lot of Muslims don't actually follow Islam to the letter.

Then they aren't Muslims.
It is as simple as that.

That is one common excuse when it is about Islam.
"Most Muslims aren't radicals."

I think most Muslims are simply not Muslims.
Believing in Allah and maybe praying to him doesn't make you a Muslim.
Following the Qur'an as accurate as possible, does.

"We are what we do."

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by MH

Good ...I suppose that how it will be with some minor adjustments.

Here are some thoughts from Ha'aretz cartoonist....

I hope that's how it will be. But they say when you fight monsters for long enough you become one...but I guess time will tell.

Originally Posted by Betonov

And deport those that are filled with hate speech.
I don't mind Ahmed coming in with his wife and 3 children and then work as a janitor or engineer, sending his kids trough college to become the next generation of engineers and doctors.

But c'mon, we really need to send a lot of the bad eggs back home.

Not a bad idea, in theory, but giving a government the power to decide what is a good or bad thing to say is a dangerous thing, but certainly the worst of them should be either imprisoned, or expelled...although to be fair, in Europe, they would probably be able to find their way back into the country fairly easily...

Originally Posted by Betonov

I hear China has a lot of rare earth deposits.
We supply the workforce and keep 3/4 of the ore

That's one way to get the Chinese on side I suppose...

What's the Chinese for Rura Penthe?

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Wasn't there a guy in the UK who once thought the same way? I guess his name was Chamberlain and we know how the story ended. Sometimes the peaceful way doesn't work as it requires your opponent to accept logic and reasoning. Both are lacking in hate filled ideologies and religions. Just waiting and appeasing doesn't always work.

Oi, don't you knock my mate Neville! He said there would be peace in our time...he didn't say exactly when!



Joking aside, it's a shame that Chamberlain has become remembered only for one thing. As peace-time Prime Ministers go, he wasn't that bad so they say.

Besides, let's look at the term appeasement.

"The policy of granting concessions to potential enemies to maintain peace."

I have not once suggested that concessions be made to anyone. So your parallels don't really work out that well. What I am striving to prevent is the creation of a European Frame-of-mind which views the whole of Islam as the enemy, that views every single follower of Islam, or every person that calls themselves a Muslim as a potential target. That's a dangerous road to go down, as I am sure that you know, that when you start viewing people as a thing rather than a person, it becomes a lot easier to dehumanise them, and once you dehumanise them, you can do all sorts of things to them with little impact on the general public conscience.
I'm sure that this is something that's been hammered into the German conscience for the same reasons that the name Chamberlain has been hammered into the European conscience as a term for appeasement.
In short, we must not view all Muslims as radical Muslims view all non-Muslims.

Don't get me wrong, I have never, and will never call for the ending of our campaign against ISIL, we should ground them into the dirt and destroy every radical violent Muslim terrorist that we find in a manner which ultimately humiliates their cause, but that does not drag us down into the dirt with them. I believe that we need to cut off their greatest strength, their ability to convert disaffected Muslim youths by doing all that we can to make sure that they convert as few as possible. Fight their ideology with ideology of our own, but treating all Muslims as a threat is going to have the complete opposite effect, and just jack up the conversion rate and consequently the attack rate.

Someone on here, I think it might be eddie, has a quote from Al Capone which I like to think would apply to my train of thought:
"Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. I'm kind to everyone, but when someone is unkind to me, weak is not what you are going to remember about me."

Originally Posted by Tribesman

No, I was specific, I wasn't on about the nuke them all crowd I referred to those couple of individuals on this forum who had specificly "justified" the murder of children in pursuit of their own ideology.
The examples were taken from topics on Iraq Lebanon Palestine and Norway.
Please be accurate Oberon, it was you who included the "nuke them all" crowd into the equation.

Anyway back to the comedy.
WARNING.... adult language....not safe for those with delicate sensibilities.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...k-cartoon-bell

D'oh! My bad, well I retract that part, but the sentiment remains.
Steve Bell is a legend.

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

No one here is living in fear and hatred, don't go overboard with the hyperbole. But we do see a widespread problem that needs to be addressed.

You're probably right about the fear and hatred, in my defence it had been a long morning and for reasons I cannot legally go into at the moment, I've had a busy few days.
There is a problem, I think everyone sees that, what is different is what people believe the problem to be, either the whole of Islam, or just part of it. Furthermore, the other difference is what people believe the solution to be, drastic violent action against the whole of Islam, or concerted long time efforts against the radicals.

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I will speak for myself only.

When I hear about terrorists attacking and killing innocents I dont become filled with hatred towards a whole group of people. However I do become angry, frustrated ,coupled with a touch of helplessness over the particular incident. And I most certainly do not live in fear because of it either taking no extra precaution. I simply continue to lead a sensible productive life. If you must know what I really fear it's high tides, skyrocketing price of a good steak and gettting overun by tree rats.

But, if what happened in France happened in my neigbhorhood I can assure everyone here I will not be taking a video of murders killing innocents. Given the chance I will without hesitation splatter their brains all over creation and not lose a bit of sleep. Thats how pissed off I am right now.

Not 'pissed' but 'pissed off' big difference you know

Well said, very well said indeed. If I had the means and opportunity to have killed the three terrorists involved in this attack then I would not lose a minutes sleep in doing so. If there was a button on a board which said "Remove radicals" I would press it, whilst singing a happy song...and then probably find out to my detriment that I'm classified as a radical.
It does piss me off that this sort of thing happens, and it pisses me off that some people generalise so much when they respond to it. That some people become radical in the response to the radicals.

Perhaps we can all just agree on our hopes that the French police are able to catch these terrorists as soon as possible. I think we can all agree on that at the very least.