Of cartoons, censorship, and hysteria

[Happy Times]

AG124 You summed up the general feelings in the West very well, no one can be offended by what you wrote. Im one of those that believe that eventually there is going to be an open conflict.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

I haven't responded at all -- now that's restrained.

No arguments to justify the events?

[AG124]

I haven't responded at all -- now that's restrained.

I wasn't talking about members of this forum - I was talking about moderate islamists. I don't mean to attack or criticize anyone on this board, and would like to hear the other side of the argument is anyone has anything to offer. It would be an excellent exercise of Freedom of Speech.

[Skybird]

Westerner must not be told that "Islam is peace". We have brain and senses to judge that by our own. ISLAM needs to be told that it should want peace. It also needs to be told that tolerance and peace is something different than Islam's superiority and dominance.

They want to live here - they have to accept our rules and cultures and live int he way we used to live in these our homecountries and our own culture -and they have to want to be one of us by heart and mind. Since Islam wants to overcome anything that is not itself, it cannot accept to do that: wanting to be like one of us, anting to be our culture, our set of values, our laws, habits, way of livings. Islam want's Islam's rules and laws and habits and settings. So for self-protective reasons we must demand that a Muslim emmigrant must want to be one of us by heart and mind and conviction - which inevatibly would mean that he must stop to be Muslim. He cannot be one of us and and wanting to turn our culture into Islam at the same time. And he helps to acchieve that result simply by his very own presence, no matter if he considers himself to be tolerant or not. We cannot afford to give muslim emigrants the same treatment as let's say Hindi or Buddhist emmigrants. These do not try to overcome their host. Islam does, and declares that as a holy duty.

I have seen slogans and cartoons in Iran on almost a daily basis in which the West, Western nations, Israel were victims of far more offending, disgusting, man-hating illustrations than these harmless Muhammad carricatures. These cartoons I saw were about bloodbaths, murder, mutilation of Jews, Western politicians, infidels; and that all the Western culture is evil, barabaric, primitive. They defended genocide, the Nazis, gas-chambers in these illustrations. But they want the Danes to excuse for these harmless carricatures. And harmless they were in comparison to Islam's own bloodthirsty propaganda.

And it was in Denmark where Danish people published these cartoons. who the hell do they think they are that Indonesians, Arabs, Iranians now tell the Danes what they shall do and shall not do anymore in their very own home country...???

Bigot, arrogant primitives.

Want to be treated as equals? Make yourself a civilization that is worth to be treated as equals. Want to be regarded as sensible and reasonable? Stop behaving like hysteric idiots, keep your temper under tighter control. Want to claim peace for your ideology? Stop investing in Islam's expansion. Want to appear as humanitarian? Free your women of slavery. Want to be en par with the West's history of ethical, philosophical, cultural developement? Make a crashcourse in cultural developement in the last 12 hundred years or so. I recognize you as equals when you deserve it. Not one century earlier.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Is this the true face of Islam?

I'm begining to wonder :hmm:

Any man who is not law enforcement and has a weapon, yet tries to mask his identity is a valid target for any self respecting citizen in my book at least!

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

The western world should simply cut off travel in and out of muslim countries, quaranteen them, until they advance out of the middle ages.

Best idea I have heard in ages! Can you imagine the kind of press a western country would get if they started in with terrorist acts just because of a cartoon? It's unbeleivable to me that it is actually happening in Muslim countries!

-S

[SUBMAN1]

One more idea pops into my head - I don't think we have seen the last of this yet. These Muslims are so smart, they will start blowing up their own people and blowing up their own mosques soon! I'm beginning to stereotype all of them it would seem, but how am I not supposed to when they pull things like this?

-S

[caspofungin]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

No arguments to justify the events?

Why even try? I don't agree w/ the mass demonstrations and bomb threats and all, nor do i agree w/ what i see as blatant antagonism w/ the justification of freedom of speech (the initial cartoons). I think both sides are wrong. people in arab countries shouldn't necessarily get upset about people in other countries exercising their freedoms. On the other hand, whatever you believe about mohamed the prophet or the man, portraying him with a bomb -- to me at least -- is analagous to a statement saying all muslims are bombers. Is that right? Or justified? Why aren't we arguing about that?

But if i try and distance myself from events, i'll be called a "moderate muslim" who's betraying his faith in effect -- by non-muslims, which is funny.

If i try and claim that the majority of muslims (i.e. 1 billion out of 2 billion worldwide -- that would be a hell of a demonstration) likely have more things to worry about than a cartoon in a danish paper, i'll be deluged w/ posts crying, "where is this silent majority?"

i could try and point out that hypocrisy exists in both western and arab editorials and political diatribes -- thats politics and media for you, wherever you live. but then we'll decend into an argument about the merits of democracy, and how islam is (or isn't) compatible with modern life.

so why don't i? people think what they want to -- that's their right. you believe what you want, leave me with my beliefs. me posting isn't going to change any preconceived notions that people have, right or wrong. so why should i bother? we (happy times, iceman, abraham, skybird, avon, etc.) have had these arguments on previous threads. why go over it again?

[caspofungin]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

The western world should simply cut off travel in and out of muslim countries, quarantine them, until they advance out of the middle ages.

and then you'd have to take the bus to work -- or pay through the nose for a gallon of gas. it's a democracy -- people can vote w/ their feet -- literally.

[caspofungin]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

These Muslims are so smart, they will start blowing up their own people and blowing up their own mosques soon!

Check out Iraq, man. it's been going on for long before these cartoons came out.

I'm beginning to stereotype all of them it would seem, but how am I not supposed to when they pull things like this?

that's really up to you, i guess.

[JSLTIGER]

Originally Posted by AG124

I'm getting sick of hearing about Muslim extremists demanding that we change our laws, culture, and now even the basis for our entire society. And I know this is making me sound like a racist or bigot, but when they are actually crowding our streets chanting for a jihad against all of us for a couple of cartoons or "freedom of speech, go to hell" (which was a slogan on several signs I noticed) I think we really do have reason to worry. They really shouldn't hope for a "clash of civilizations" (as some Muslim's were screaming for one enthusiastically tonight on the news) - if there was a total all-out war between them and the West, I doubt they would stand much chance in the long run. But what concernes me is that Western governments will band over backwards to accomodate them in any way possible - until we are banned from doing anything which they deem to be unholy (meanwhile in their own countries, they will do nothing to accomodate anything we ask from them and will continue to harbour terrorists). They apparently have no fear of our nations now - they were able to roam the streets of France destroying and attacking whatever and whoever they could find (with a low number of arrests and I believe, moderate prison sentences to the handful that were caught). I don't even think we should be allowing huge scores of them to flee to our countries - I believe in multiculturalism and the promotion of divergent cultures but the majority of muslims appear to only call for the subjugation of other cultures and refuse to accept any belief that does not conform perfectly to their own.

Maybe there are a few moderates asking for a more restrained response, but I don't see any. The huge crowds of screaming fanatics calling for the spilling of our blood, the destruction of our civilized societies, and the erasing of every democratic principle which we have worked hard to establish must be drowning them out.

I just have to get that off my chest - I am really worried about what the future holds for Western countries against such an unruly mob of crazed fanatics. I am not a racist though - this is about extremist religion and the overturning of liberal democracy to me. I hope such a rant does not violate SubSim's policies in any way - if so I will delete it and not post another.

I COMPLETELY agree with what was posted here. Now here's a thought...why did no one pick up on these sentiments after events such as 9/11? As I recall, the airwaves were rife with images of Palestinians dancing in the streets upon hearing the news of the 9/11 attacks.

When the Palestinians elected a terrorist led government this past week the Western world threatened to pull aid. Why is this even a question? Aid from the ENTIRE world should be halted until Hamas renounces terrorism. It SHOULD have been halted a long time ago, when those 9/11 images were first broadcast. However, the Saudis and Pakistanis are already committing to a payment of at least $33 million to the Palestinian Authority to replace a $55 million payment that Israel delayed while it attempts to figure out how to negotiate peace with a government led by a party whose fundamental principal is Israel's DESTRUCTION!

Why do we continue to give aid to those nations which are obviously ungrateful? Why do OUR tax dollars go to fund terrorist states which are wearing a thin veil over their true nature? More importantly, why are we giving aid to the rest of the world when we can't even take care of OUR OWN PEOPLE?!

I am NOT an isolationist. I believe that we should maintain our involvement in world politics, and aim to solve disputes peacefully while still maintaining our superior military capabilities (such as stealth aircraft, supercarriers, nuclear propelled vessels, tanks, etc.). However, I do not believe that the American taxpayer has a fundamental duty to fund all of the other nations of the world. Funding our allies is one thing, funding our enemies is just ridiculous.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg....R14eVa5uVtsw--
In front of the French Embassy in London.

Of all the hypocrisy. His freedom's what's allowing him to wave that sign. If he doesn't want it, he should get the hell out of the UK.

[sonar732]

Now, the US State Departmet has taken a anti-cartoon message...

from CNN...

In Washington, the U.S. State Department criticized the drawings, calling them "offensive to the beliefs of Muslims."

While recognizing the importance of freedom of the press and expression, U.S. State Department press officer Janelle Hironimus said these rights must be coupled with press responsibility.

"Inciting religious or ethnic hatred in this manner is not acceptable," Hironimus said. "We call for tolerance and respect for all communities and for their religious beliefs and practices."

[Ducimus]

Token message.

THey have to say SOMETHING. I think if they said nothing it would be taken as a sign of approval. But even if they say something (like they did), it wont change anyones minds reguarding the US.

[Crow]

chickenshi¨t Frogs are the bravest of em all again

Carrefour is a French supermarket chain , how low can you go in towelhead arselicking

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

On the other hand, whatever you believe about mohamed the prophet or the man, portraying him with a bomb -- to me at least -- is analagous to a statement saying all muslims are bombers. Is that right? Or justified? Why aren't we arguing about that?

For two reasons. By historical reality Muhammad was a man of violance. War, murder, massmurder, intimidation, conquering, raiding, imprisonment, slavery, torture, harems and supression of females - all this were tools that he made massive use of. muhammad already had participated in raids and had killed with his own hands while still beeing in service for his uncle, long before he appeared on the scene as a preacher. No reasonable man with some historical knowledge could argue that he was a man having a peaceful message to mankind on his mind. To say that would be like arguing that Hitler deserved the peace nobel prize because his party had the word "sozialistisch" in it's name.

And second, the position that now demands arguing about those cartoons is heavily biased and one-sdied. Why do we not argue about what I mentioned in this quote, and that is happening in the araba world dozens of times EACH DAY?

Originally Posted by Skybird

I have seen slogans and cartoons in Iran on almost a daily basis in which the West, Western nations, Israel were victims of far more offending, disgusting, man-hating illustrations than these harmless Muhammad carricatures. These cartoons I saw were about bloodbaths, murder, mutilation of Jews, Western politicians, infidels; and that all the Western culture is evil, barabaric, primitive. They defended genocide, the Nazis, gas-chambers in these illustrations. But they want the Danes to excuse for these harmless carricatures. And harmless they were in comparison to Islam's own bloodthirsty propaganda.

First Islam cleans it's own house, then we can start talking about the West's behavior. It does not compare. First we talk about making "funny cartoons" of massmurder, mutilation, and depticting infidels as animals and lower creatures that deserve to feel the whip, or even beeing nuked. And then we may talk about illustrations of Muhammad that concentrate on his - by historical matter of fact - violant mindset. He is the starting point of the biggest military conquest human history has ever seen. The picture of him with a turban in form of a bomb I found not to be too cartoonish at all. It simply was illustrating a truth about that man.

If some hundred million people for whatever a reason choose to identitfy themselves with such a figure, it is not my problem, but theirs. But it tells me something about these people's mindsets.