How many here carries a concealed weapon?

[August]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I guess it would depend on how it was framed by the media, certainly if things like secret police were created that would probably cause an uproar. Free speech, it would depend on how it was curtailed, but I imagine that most attempts at curtailment would see a protest. Privacy, not really sure about to be honest, in regards to electronic privacy, well I think most people have just assumed that they are being monitored, hence the complete lack of surprise to the Snowden 'revelations'. Free Association...I doubt that exists completely in a modern society, not even in America...because let's face it, a good percentage of Americans just parrot what the biased media sources feed them, likewise Brits.

You seem to think that just because we don't have the right to bear arms that we are an oppressed society? That makes a good portion of the whole planet oppressed, and some rather dodgy nations unoppressed, Somalia for one. I think that there may just be a smidge of bias in your assumptions.
I for one am reasonably content, I have a roof over my head, I've got access to free healthcare (for the moment), access to food and water, and access to a relatively uncensored internet (with the only real censoring being pirates and porn).

Besides, Brits do protest, it just rarely makes the news because we generally don't make too much of a fuss about it, the war against Iraq saw over a million people in protest in London, in fact if you go down outside the Houses of Parliament on any day of the week you will find a group protesting on something.

I realized that after I posted. What I should have asked is what would make you revolt ala Kiev.

[August]

BTW the poll is missing the option:

"Yes sometimes I do, because rights not exercised are soon lost."

That's be my choice.

[Hjalfnar]

As carrying guns and other weapons, concealed or openly, is against the law in Germany (with expections for people with hunting license), the question simply doesn't show up for me. Especially as I know a few people who are allowed to use small caliber guns in the "Schützenverein" (you know, these guys with the fancy hats, drinking too much and playing awful music, the English term "gun club" doesn't fit here^^), which are mostly heavy drinkers and tend to use the things on themself sooner or later...or go amok, what happened 3 times the last 3 years and it were always guys from the Schützenverein (which added to their already bad reputation).

As in Germany even the police doesn't have to use their guns that often (around 100 times the last year, I think...and I mean the hole german police force of the hole country^^) it simply isn't worth the risk...and you simply don't need it.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Certainly I will not, or ever, question the right of Americans to bear arms, as I have mentioned before, it is a quintessential American thing, like the Eagle, the Stars and Stripes and so on and so forth. Any President who tries to impose such laws is just asking for an impeachment, that is pretty certain.

There are American's who would disagree with that assessment, otherwise there wouldn't be much of a domestic debate on the subject at all.

I think also that it would depend upon your daily situation, I have been to places in London where I have felt uneasy, but generally I try to avoid such areas after nightfall. Obviously if you are unable to for some reason then you would want to take measures to protect yourself.

Here I would like to state something that I've learned years ago. We are all products of our environment. Every one of us. How we are, how we think, how we perceive things, is molded into shape by our daily lives. On that note, I think as environments change, so do people, but I wonder if the overall "molding" is cumulative. Anyway.. just a tangent there.

Is a gun the answer? Perhaps,

If you want a weapon for defense (IE: to save life and limb), I would argue you'd want the weapon that would greatest maximize your chances of success and survival, would you not?

but equally a gun is also a contributor to the creation of dangerous situations by accident, as Rilder mentioned, the accidental shootings caused by fear of home invasion.

Probably no more then any other weapon. In a situation where you find yourself stumbling around in the dark (which i think stupid) with a knife, or club, is no different then a gun. Regardless of choice of weapon, you can't see who's in front of you. Mistakes can be made.

Once that bullet leaves the gun, you can't take it back, and it's designed to be as damaging as possible to the human body.

Not necessarily true. It depends on what you choose to load the gun with. Options include your standard "Ball" ammunition. Hollow points, which do as you describe, or Less than lethal ammunition. See here:

I think the problem is, is that anyone who isn't an American, who hasn't been brought up with that right to bear arms drummed into them by society (for good or for ill) will struggle to understand it, I know I certainly do.

Ok this is just my opinion, and i'm being very general here...
The thing about guns to an American, is that they are not just guns. Yes they are weapons, but they are a lot more then that. I could if i spent the time, write an essay on this, but being very brief (and i'll probably overlook something as a result), guns are symbolic of history, tradition, individualism, independence, self reliance, citizenship, and that most often overused word, freedom. All things greatly valued in our culture.

Amazingly Maw Zedong may have said it best, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." The American people keeping and bearing arms is highly symbolic that ultimately the political power in this country rests within "We the people". (Or at least it should ) Our country never had a Monarchy of any sort, and was established as a Constitutional Republic with Democratic tendencies. I think you may agree that symbolism can be a powerful thing, so to ask an American to give up their guns, is in fact, asking A LOT.

When Charlton Heston (infamously in progressive circles) held up a reproduction musket and said, "from my cold dead hands", it' wasn't just a gun he holding up in the air, but an object that symbolizes many things valued.

[MH]

Ok this is just my opinion, and i'm being very general here...
The thing about guns to an American, is that they are not just guns. Yes they are weapons, but they are a lot more then that. I could if i spent the time, write an essay on this, but being very brief (and i'll probably overlook something as a result), guns are symbolic of history, tradition, individualism, independence, self reliance, citizenship, and that most often overused word, freedom. All things greatly valued in our culture]

I can agree with that and that is possibly something worth fighting for.
I just hate when the gun issue - the right of every citizen to carry a gun is shown in some practical ways like crime prevention and so on.
Having every one armed simply raises the bar of violence.
Now it is sort of debate about what came first...chicken or the egg.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Pespective only, two people can encounter exactly the same experiences and come away with different perspectives

Originally Posted by Platapus

"How many here carries a concealed weapon?"

Yikes!

Originally Posted by Oberon

In regards to perceptions, I also concur, two people can have completely different viewpoints based upon one experience, and that is just human nature.

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

I find the thread somewhat inappropriate at this juncture which my original post was intended to reflect. The first aspect of training which is required in California along with A P.O.S.T. certificate is that it (CCW'S) is not discussed; the weapon is never revealed and it is never brandished. If it is drawn, it is used, or it never should have been drawn at all. Various newspapers have, at times attempted to publish the names of CCW holders, as function of a 'public document' therefore of public interest, and been refuted by the issuing authorities as 'invasive of privacy' or an actual threat to the safety of the permitee. I have actually warded off a would-be mugger, in my case traversing in Central Park NYC while armed-hand on holstered grip, and have no concept of how often in public, in a professional capacity, in full kit or mufti, my paid presence is sufficient to deter the bad guys. The firearm is merely a prop to the real weapon, as Steelhead puts it blithely, 'between your ears'; situational awareness, command presence, some good verbal judo and some escalation of force capacity are better weapons. By the latter I mean a good pepper spray. In an after-action-settlement by 'tryers of fact'(a jury or inquest), and there will be one, the ability to demonstrate that the firearm was not your only option speaks volumes as to your initial restraint and utter need to resort to deadly force as you must demonstrate the element of great fear of bodily harm or loss of life to exonerate your 'justifiable homicide'. Moreover, if after using said weapon, you must detain or restrain the assailant with cuffs or his belt, thus taking him into custody, a citizen's arrest, even if obviously deceased as you are not medically qualified to determine otherwise. You're 'incapacitating your assailant' not 'blowing his ass away'...and it must appear so to the 'tryers of fact'. In short: a CCW is a major pain and if you own a home or have a fiduciary portfolio look out! It ain't about the long arm of the law...it's about the deep pocket of your homeowner's insurance carrier and the municipality that issued you the CCW's liability! Believe me; your perception in an adrenalin-laced moment of tunnel-vision along a gunsight and the 'tryer of fact's' perception and perspective, six months later, in a cool 'Monday morning quarter-backing' of your 'inalienable privilege' to defend your own miserable hide will not be the same...as with Mr. Zimmerman, lately of Florida or the equally infamous Bernhard Goetz of the 1984 Subway shooting in NYC.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

I realized that after I posted. What I should have asked is what would make you revolt ala Kiev.

I couldn't tell you to be perfectly serious and honest. No one could have predicted that the police shooting of Mark Duggan would spark off the 2011 riots. We've had our fair share of civil uprisings in the past, and even fairly recently, but nothing in the scope of what's taking place in Kiev for...well...centuries. The closest you could get to it, probably, would be the Easter Rising in Ireland in 1916, but on the mainland, probably not since the Jacobites in the 1700s.
The last real big bust up before the 2011 riots was probably the Poll Tax Riots, if I'm honest the era of Maggie Thatcher is a good place to look if you want to see British unrest on full display.

Poll Tax Riots - 1990 - Economic/Social unrest:


Brixton and Toxteth Riots - 1981 Social/Race unrest:




Miners Strike - Orgreave Picket 'Battle for Orgreave' - 1984 Social unrest:


Jimbuna will probably get some memories from that footage, I know he was at Toxteth, and no doubt was roped in to deal with the miners.

More recently we had a fairly big scuffle over Tuition fees:


Which probably helped lead into the 2011 riots, it was all in the same year IIRC.

But a full on revolution and overthrow of the government would require something of a magnitude greater than what we've seen already, it would need the government to make a catastrophic screw up and the media to report on it fairly widely (which shouldn't take much, the rolling news loves a good riot) and for enough people to actually be affected by it in a big way. Or, it might take nothing at all...I honestly couldn't say, these things tend to come out of the field and catch us off guard.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

There are American's who would disagree with that assessment, otherwise there wouldn't be much of a domestic debate on the subject at all.

True that, still the history of America is inextricably linked with the gun, Colt, Smith and Wessen, Winchester, household names. Take the gun out of America...it just wouldn't seem right.

Here I would like to state something that I've learned years ago. We are all products of our environment. Every one of us. How we are, how we think, how we perceive things, is molded into shape by our daily lives. On that note, I think as environments change, so do people, but I wonder if the overall "molding" is cumulative. Anyway.. just a tangent there.

Not going to disagree at all. Spot on in my opinion.

If you want a weapon for defense (IE: to save life and limb), I would argue you'd want the weapon that would greatest maximize your chances of success and survival, would you not?

This is true, and ultimately the problem lies with the fleshy bit that's holding the gun. If someone is going to kill someone else, they'd better be damned sure that their life is in danger...and how do you make damn sure?
This, admittedly, is a problem as old as weaponry itself, an old English poem from around the English Civil War has the phrase:

The blood that was spilt, sir, Hath gain'd all the gilt, sir; Thus have you seen me run my Sword up to the hilt, sir.

Probably no more then any other weapon. In a situation where you find yourself stumbling around in the dark (which i think stupid) with a knife, or club, is no different then a gun. Regardless of choice of weapon, you can't see who's in front of you. Mistakes can be made.

True. I'd wager that the ease of use to damage inflicted ratio is a bit askew with weapons other than knives or guns.

Not necessarily true. It depends on what you choose to load the gun with. Options include your standard "Ball" ammunition. Hollow points, which do as you describe, or Less than lethal ammunition. See here:

Good point. I guess it also depends on where you get hit. Same with a knife.

Ok this is just my opinion, and i'm being very general here...
The thing about guns to an American, is that they are not just guns. Yes they are weapons, but they are a lot more then that. I could if i spent the time, write an essay on this, but being very brief (and i'll probably overlook something as a result), guns are symbolic of history, tradition, individualism, independence, self reliance, citizenship, and that most often overused word, freedom. All things greatly valued in our culture.

Yup, and someone who isn't an American will really struggle to understand this. I struggle, but I respect that, however I think that as time goes on, there is going to have to be a long hard look at how firearms interact with American society and vice versa, because society in itself has changed dramatically since the Second Amendment was drawn up. Does this mean that guns need to go? Not at all, but there is two great immobile forces locking horns here and eventually something is going to give.

Amazingly Maw Zedong may have said it best, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." The American people keeping and bearing arms is highly symbolic that ultimately the political power in this country rests within "We the people". (Or at least it should ) Our country never had a Monarchy of any sort, and was established as a Constitutional Republic with Democratic tendencies. I think you may agree that symbolism can be a powerful thing, so to ask an American to give up their guns, is in fact, asking A LOT.

Mao may have been ruthlessly genocidal, but he was a shrewd person, he knew how power worked, how to get it, keep it, and exploit it.
The problem I think that America will find in the 21st century is that whilst the American people have political power in their guns, the government that they keep those guns to defend from has much bigger guns and much more power if it chooses to use it. Of course, if the entire populace rose up, then that would be something different, but we all know that nothing is ever unanimous.

When Charlton Heston (infamously in progressive circles) held up a reproduction musket and said, "from my cold dead hands", it' wasn't just a gun he holding up in the air, but an object that symbolizes many things valued.

YOU BLEW IT UP! No...wait...

I know that you are non-partisan Ducimus, and I respect you for that, but I still wonder how vocal the current crowds who fear the loss of their freedoms will be under a differently aligned President. Still, time will tell.

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by MH

Having every one armed simply raises the bar of violence

That is your opinion and not fact. Take your gun hating views somewhere else.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

That is your opinion and not fact. Take your gun hating views somewhere else.

Why? Is the First Amendment outlawed in favour of the Second?

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Why? Is the First Amendment outlawed in favour of the Second?

Not at all. If you want to present facts instead of lies and opinions then I'd be happy to have a conversation with you otherwise go spew your hatred somewhere else.

For those of you gun haters how many of you served your country? My experience has been 99% of you haven't. I gave my country 6 years of my life. I'm almost convinced that if you had served your country you'd have a totally different view on guns

[bigd0311]

"For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know"



USMC 8 yrs active, 4 yrs reserve, 5 yrs as a sheriff's deputy.


I carry a weapon because I can, because I'm a law abiding citizen, and because I've been extensively trained. I've carried a weapon for literally half my life. It's a tool.


The ability to defend yourself is a right. If you chose not to exercise that right, so be it. If overnight all firearms disappeared, however, that isn't going to make you safe. If you run into Brock Lesnar in a dark alley, he's just going to squeeze your neck until your head pops off. That's what firearms are for. Sam Colt's equalizer. I can only hope that you never have to defend yourself or your family.



That being said, if your carrying a weapon and you haven't received any training, (and I'm not talking about the 50 rounds you have to fire to qualify for a CCW at 15 feet max), you're doing yourself and everyone around you a great disservice.


This wasn't aimed at anyone in particular but rather everyone.


/end rant

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

Not at all. If you want to present facts instead of lies and opinions then I'd be happy to have a conversation with you otherwise go spew your hatred somewhere else.

For those of you gun haters how many of you served your country? My experience has been 99% of you haven't. I gave my country 6 years of my life. I'm almost convinced that if you had served your country you'd have a totally different view on guns

I don't see how being a soldier for your chosen nation state change anything, this is a civilized society of people trying live their lives, not a warzone where the enemy is around every corner.

For me, I don't want a society where problems are solved with a gun, I want the underlying reasons behind criminal behavior to be found and treated. A person does not commit violent acts for no reason and we should find the cultural, social, and psychological reasons behind the acts and eliminate them. A normal person doesn't commit acts of violence, just as someone who doesn't want for anything won't commit theft.

We need education, welfare, and healthcare, not guns and death. I don't care if that means paying a little bit extra taxes, its better then people dying.

[Jimbuna]

Cool heads everyone.

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by Rilder

For me, I don't want a society where problems are solved with a gun, I want the underlying reasons behind criminal behavior to be found and treated

Who said the problems have to be solved with a gun? You are talking like an anti-gun person with those kind of comments. You choose not to have any part in guns, that is your right. Don't try and violate mine.

I carry because it's my right, if you choose not to exercise your rights then that is your choice. Don't go crying when you find yourself in a situation that has the possibility of a different outcome if you had simply chosen to exercise your rights.

I would like the underlying reasons behind criminal behavior to be found also. Things are never going to get better until we get the money of politics, put term limits on all public servants, and most importantly fix the unequal distribution of wealth in the USA. More and better education is also needed in this country as it's going down the crapper faster and faster every year.

Don't see how being a solder has anything to do with it? That tells me you never have served your country. Are you scared?

I seek out people that are anti-gun. Why? To see why they are so anti-gun. The vast majority of them either recite Fox talking points and/or are scared of them because they've never held/used one. It's these that have never held/used one that I really want to connect with. I ask them to join me at the gun range so that they can see they are not a scary thing if handled correctly. A few decline because it's been so ingrained in their upbringing that guns are bad by their parents (shame on the parents!). Those that I do get to join me at the gun range end up having a great time. A few have even gone on to buy guns of their own. They then get their friends to join them at the gun range and it gets contagious. This is exactly what the anti-gun people hate and I love giving them the finger