what were The Old Men thinking?

[Sailor Steve]

You have to remember that 300 was based on a comic bo...graphic novel. They added some to the story, but Frank Miller was their only source.

One of the things I liked about Troy was the fact that during his fights Achilles occasionally stops, and every time he stops it's in a pose seen on an ancient Greek urn. that made my eyes pop out. The rest of it? Meh. They got enough right to make me buy a copy, and enough wrong to make me complain about it every time I watch it. Still, seeing the thousand ships onscreen was pretty cool.

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

I agree that Achilles' death is one element of the story where they probably could have stuck with the Homeric version and still not strayed outside the limitations of trying to fit all the major necessary plot points into what time they had. OTOH, the way they handled it did provide what felt to me like a very satisfactory and necessary resolution to the romantic subplot of Achilles and Briseis.

I like the idea that Achilles was shot with several arrows, but the one in his heel was the only one left. From my readings of The Iliad I felt like Achilles' anger over Agammemnon's taking of Briseis was less love than petulant anger over who was in control. My personal feeling is that Achilles never loved anyone but Achilles (and maybe Patroclus). Also my feeling from the Iliad is that Helen herself was a spoiled brat. In the original she doesn't say "I'd rather have a live coward than a dead hero", she berates him badly as a coward, and says she wishes she had Menelaus back, as he was twice the man Paris would ever be. His answer? "Come, sit with me. Let us make friends."

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I like the idea that Achilles was shot with several arrows, but the one in his heel was the only one left

Yep, and IIRC it was that one that finally made it impossible for him to keep moving and fighting and so sealed his fate. Granted, he might have been well and truly dead anyway given how many times he'd already been hit, but like you I appreciated the fact that they still used the idea of him having that as his one and only truly weak spot while still making it less literal than in the mythology.

Since they emphasized the human aspects of the story and pretty much left the supernatural aspects out of it (except for references by the characters to their gods and beliefs), that seemed like a well done compromise IMO. If they had made Achilles take one shot to the heel and croak it would've stretched the required suspension of disbelief way too far... but if they'd left the idea of his one legendary fatal weakness out altogether, it would've just seemed equally wrong.

[VONHARRIS]

FK and Sailor Steve,
I really would like to congatulate you both on your knowledge of the Greek mythology.
Achilles was "almost" immortal.
His mother had bathed him in the waters of a secret spring making him immortal. BUT she was holding him by his heel, so this was the only part of his body that was not got wet by the "holy" water. Apollo , the god of the Sun ,who was in favour of the Trojans revealed the secret to Paris and guided the only arrow that could kill Achilles.

FK , the Delphic oracle , Pythia , had predicted that either Sparta will fall or one Spartan king will die. Sparta was the only city-state that had two kings at any given time: One would march to war , the other would stay behind.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by VONHARRIS

FK and Sailor Steve,
I really would like to congatulate you both on your knowledge of the Greek mythology.

I owe it all to Edith Hamilton.

Is this part in the book, as ive just started reading it again and dont remember reading that part!

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I owe it all to Edith Hamilton.

I owe it "all" to a wide variety of sources, but I owe my initial interest to the card catalog of the Lane Public Library.

We also have a wonderful archaeology dept at the Univ of Cincinnati, one of the best and most active in the US. They had ongoing digs at Troy under Carl Blegen in the 1930s and again from 1998-2002 in partnership with a group from Germany. The professor here who ran our part of it used to give open lectures at UC every year when he came back. They were awesome. I was on the mailing list for the classics dept then, and somehow it followed me through a couple different address changes... now that I think about it, they've either discontinued the lectures or I got booted from the list somehow because I haven't gotten anything in while. I should probably look into that, altho I don't think they have anything going at Troy any more.

OTOH I think they've moved on to Knossos and Pylos and that would probably be equally interesting.

[JazzJR]

Originally Posted by VONHARRIS

Achilles was "almost" immortal.
His mother had bathed him in the waters of a secret spring making him immortal. BUT she was holding him by his heel, so this was the only part of his body that was not got wet by the "holy" water.

Wasn't she bathing him in the underword river Styx?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by BaldyBoy25

Is this part in the book, as ive just started reading it again and dont remember reading that part!

Which part? Which book. I'm so confused (and that's not your fault).

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

I owe it "all" to a wide variety of sources, but I owe my initial interest to the card catalog of the Lane Public Library. .

I meant my interest, of course, not my whole knowledge, though Hamilton is the best place to start. She was a foremost translator and scholar, and her book won her an honorary citizenship to Athens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Hamilton

Originally Posted by JazzJR

Wasn't she bathing him in the underword river Styx?

Ayup. Thetis was also indirectly responsible for the war itself, since she was a lesser goddess and when she married Peleus invitations were sent to all the gods except Eris (Discord, which should make the reason obviious). Eris showed up anyway with the golden apple with "For The Fairest" inscribed on it, which caused the fight between Hera, Athena and Aphrodite, which led to them asking Paris to judge, which led to Paris judging not on beauty but on bribes, and Aphrodite's bribe was Helen.

Oh, one other thing about Troy that made me grind my teeth, though it's a small thing. At one point in the movie Priam says "These walls have stood for a thousand years." I had to clench my teeth to keep from shouting "Except when you were a teenager and helped your father rebuild them after Heracles tore them down with his bare hands!"

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

At one point in the movie Priam says "These walls have stood for a thousand years." I had to clench my teeth to keep from shouting "Except when you were a teenager and helped your father rebuild them after Heracles tore them down with his bare hands!"

Also: I feel your pain.

[flag4]

...its all greek to me...

[GZ3.141593_Man]

I started off playing Silent Hunter 2, on a Dell PC from 2002, and I found out that you can sink a destroyer by going "Rudder Amidships Ahead Flank" and charging straight at the bow of the destroyer. I would have to get within 600m, or the damn destroyer will out flank the torpedo!

I have since moved on to a Intel Mac that I run SH3 and SH4, and it does work, but you have to be almost suicidal. Ram that torpedo down the bow of that destroyer, double knuckle under and dive deep. If the torpedo misses, then you end up chasing each other around till you batteries run out.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by flag4

...its all greek to me...

And according to a quote from Father Ted, the Greeks invented...?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by GZ3.141593_Man

I started off playing Silent Hunter 2, on a Dell PC from 2002, and I found out that you can sink a destroyer by going "Rudder Amidships Ahead Flank" and charging straight at the bow of the destroyer. I would have to get within 600m, or the damn destroyer will out flank the torpedo!

I played a lot of SH2 and DC multiplay back in the day (we had a huge club here). The better tactic was to run away from the destroyer, with your periscope up. He would see it and charge up your stern, and he wouldn't evade when you shot him. Back it the Silent Service days you could see the position of every ship while submerged, so dogfighting with destroyers was easy and fun.

These days I've grown jaded and play as historically as I can, thinking that if I lose I'll die, and so will 40+ other men I'm responsible for.

I also don't use any of the 'knuckle' commands, as those weren't orders they really used.

[Fish In The Water]

Originally Posted by GZ3.141593_Man

I have since moved on to a Intel Mac that I run SH3 and SH4, and it does work, but you have to be almost suicidal. Ram that torpedo down the bow of that destroyer, double knuckle under and dive deep. If the torpedo misses, then you end up chasing each other around till you batteries run out.

A little too risky for my blood, but welcome all the same!