Perry.."Evolution is a theory"

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

(since "science" can't agree on a number), that we don't have any clearly defined record prior to ~6000 years ago, and that there are many ideas or theories about the earth's origins - but that since no humans were around at the start of it all, perhaps they can figure out what they want to believe on their own.

Dogma is dogma, whether it be creationism or evolution. If parents and teachers did their jobs correctly, kids would be able to think things through and figure it out for themselves, instead of having one view shoved down their throat while excluding any others.

Creationism IS taught in Texas schools. Its part of an elective Biblical History course. How is it that this has not been stopped?

We clearly have defined records going past 6000 years from several tribes, 75,000 years plus.....Sort of throws that the earth is 6000 years old biblical theory out the window.

Try searching worlds oldest tribes. Some have a more detailed history than the jews. I also find that strange, every tribe has a creation story. The creation account in Gen. was probably written in around 1500 AD and seems almost copied from other creation stories that existed long before, with a differrent spin. Maybe God spoke to each tribe differently, but how are you going to teach that.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

You can buy tshirts that explain Haplo's post here - http://controversy.wearscience.com/

Gotta love 'em. Why don't we teach the things on all those t-shirts as viable alternatives to evolution?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Armistead

We clearly have defined records going past 6000 years from several tribes, 75,000 years plus.....Sort of throws that the earth is 6000 years old biblical theory out the window.

As does a completely different field of study. How long is a light year? How long did it take the light from Proxima Centauri to reach us? How long did it take the light from NGC 4203 to get here? The furthest star in our own galaxy is approximately 95,000 light years away, so either the galaxy is that old or God lied to us. Either one is untenable to any theology (well, except the Greeks and the Norse, but their stories are myths while our stories are the truth).

Science is science and faith is faith, and apparently never the twain shall meet.

[Diopos]

You don't get it.
The universe was created 6000 years ago. God just added fossils, already decaying radio isotopes, the universal X-ray background, etc, with the initial creation because ...
... he wanted to pull a joke?


.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

As does a completely different field of study. How long is a light year? How long did it take the light from Proxima Centauri to reach us? How long did it take the light from NGC 4203 to get here? The furthest star in our own galaxy is approximately 95,000 light years away, so either the galaxy is that old or God lied to us. Either one is untenable to any theology (well, except the Greeks and the Norse, but their stories are myths while our stories are the truth).

Science is science and faith is faith, and apparently never the twain shall meet.

What amazes me is those that believe in a 6000 year old earth will accept a written story over all scientific evidence. They deny all the proof that tribes of people populated the earth with much written detail up to 75,000 years ago. They deny the plate structure of the earth, fossil fuels.

In one debate in a religious forum, one even stated God created in 6 days 6 thousand years ago, but sped it up so it would look much older so we would have to use faith.

In fact the creation story of the bible shows God can't just wink...if you're God, why would it take you 6 days just to create lil old earth, then a day of rest.

Clear it's just a story of how they tried to explain creation lacking science.

Wonder if christians would accept creation being taught in mythology, instead of science.


Like many, I don't discount God may exist, my faith says it's possible, but I just don't know.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Armistead

In one debate in a religious forum, one even stated God created in 6 days 6 thousand years ago, but sped it up so it would look much older so we would have to use faith.

So even they say that God lied? Interesting.

Like many, I don't discount God may exist, my faith says it's possible, but I just don't know.

I lost my faith a long time ago, but I also don't discount that God may exist. My brain says it's possible, and I don't know one way or the other.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

As does a completely different field of study. How long is a light year? How long did it take the light from Proxima Centauri to reach us? How long did it take the light from NGC 4203 to get here? The furthest star in our own galaxy is approximately 95,000 light years away, so either the galaxy is that old or God lied to us. Either one is untenable to any theology (well, except the Greeks and the Norse, but their stories are myths while our stories are the truth).

Science is science and faith is faith, and apparently never the twain shall meet.

Not that simple...there is first grade evolution and first grade creation.

How did G-d create the world? The Torah commentator Rashi tells us that G-d created everything in potential on Day One, and then different species developed from that primordial soup. (see Genesis 1:24, 2:4) It is worthwhile noting that as he was writing in the 11th century, Rashi was not making apologetics in the face of a scientific challenge!

Rabbi Shimshon Rafael Hirsch (19th century Germany) further explains that each "Day" represents a specific stage of creation - i.e. a mingling of raw materials and bursts of dramatic new development. As you go through the Torah's account, you see described a gradual process from simple to more complex organisms - first a mass of swirling gasses, then water, then the emergence of dry land, followed by plants, fish, birds, animals, and finally, human beings. This pattern may be similar to the evolutionary process proposed by science. It is truly fascinating to realize that the Torah's position never changed; science has come to match it! In fact, the recently proposed Punctuated Theory of Equilibria is a further step toward the reconciliation of Judaism and science. In other words, Arnold Penzias, who was awarded the Nobel Prize for his research on the Big Bang, remarked: "What we see marking the flight of galaxies with our telescopes, Maimonides saw from his metaphysical view."

15 Billion or Six Days?
Today, we look back in time. We see 15 billion years. Looking forward from when the universe is very small ***8213; billions of times smaller ***8213; the Torah says six days. They both may be correct.
What's exciting about the last few years in cosmology is we now have quantified the data to know the relationship of the "view of time" from the beginning, relative to the "view of time" today. It's not science fiction any longer. Any one of a dozen physics text books all bring the same number. The general relationship between time near the beginning when stable matter formed from the light (the energy, the electromagnetic radiation) of the creation) and time today is a million million, that is a trillion fold extension. That's a 1 with 12 zeros after it. It is a unit-less ratio. So when a view from the beginning looking forward says "I'm sending you a pulse every second," would we see it every second? No. We'd see it every million million seconds. Because that's the stretching effect of the expansion of the universe. In astronomy, the term is “red shift.” Red shift in observed astronomical data is standard.
The Torah doesn't say every second, does it? It says Six Days. How would we see those six days? If the Torah says we're sending information for six days, would we receive that information as six days? No. We would receive that information as six million million days. Because the Torah's perspective is from the beginning looking forward.
Six million million days is a very interesting number. What would that be in years? Divide by 365 and it comes out to be 16 billion years. Essentially the estimate of the age of the universe. Not a bad guess for 3300 years ago.
The way these two figures match up is extraordinary. I'm not speaking as a theologian; I'm making a scientific claim. I didn't pull these numbers out of hat. That's why I led up to the explanation very slowly, so you can follow it step-by-step.
Now we can go one step further. Let's look at the development of time, day-by-day, based on the expansion factor. Every time the universe doubles, the perception of time is cut in half. Now when the universe was small, it was doubling very rapidly. But as the universe gets bigger, the doubling time gets longer. This rate of expansion is quoted in "The Principles of Physical Cosmology," a textbook that is used literally around the world.
(In case you want to know, this exponential rate of expansion has a specific number averaged at 10 to the 12th power. That is in fact the temperature of quark confinement, when matter freezes out of the energy: 10.9 times 10 to the 12th power Kelvin degrees divided by (or the ratio to) the temperature of the universe today, 2.73 degrees. That's the initial ratio which changes exponentially as the universe expands.)
The calculations come out to be as follows:
• The first of the Biblical days lasted 24 hours, viewed from the "beginning of time perspective." But the duration from our perspective was 8 billion years.
• The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.
• The third 24 hour day also included half of the previous day, 2 billion years.
• The fourth 24 hour day ***8213; one billion years.
• The fifth 24 hour day ***8213; one-half billion years.
• The sixth 24 hour day ***8213; one-quarter billion years.
When you add up the Six Days, you get the age of the universe at 15 and 3/4 billion years. The same as modern cosmology. Is it by chance?
But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine.

Actually when take aside this superficial bashing its quite fascinating.
You can look at it as adapting religion to since or the other way around still its interesting.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

So even they say that God lied? Interesting.


I lost my faith a long time ago, but I also don't discount that God may exist. My brain says it's possible, and I don't know one way or the other.

I understand..

It's usually a long process to get there....

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Gotta love 'em. Why don't we teach the things on all those t-shirts as viable alternatives to evolution?

That would be ****ing hilarious, and horribly counterproductive towards advancing education, unless you it was in a cynicism class.

That would be ****ing hilarious, and horribly counterproductive towards advancing education, unless you it was in a cynicism class.

It can be turned around and made very productive towards advancing education, call it business studies and run the class on the premise that if you can get other people to really swallow this crap you should be able to sell them anything.

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

The teaching of evolution in schools is little more than an attempt to destroy Christianity by teaching children that it could not be factual, and thus destroying the foundation of its theology. Of course, it never occured to anyone that teaching children that we don't know how long the earth has been here (since "science" can't agree on a number), that we don't have any clearly defined record prior to ~6000 years ago, and that there are many ideas or theories about the earth's origins - but that since no humans were around at the start of it all, perhaps they can figure out what they want to believe on their own.

And it's for this reason that you can never convict anyone who is suspected of committing a crime, as we simply can't deduce past events from present evidence.

Didn't you already ask about the age of the Earth a while back? And weren't you conclusively shown by a number of people that it's billions of years older than what the fundies want to be true?

Anyway, this video shows exactly how we know that your 6000 year figure is completely, laughably, wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer...22/riLm-AMa7_I

[antikristuseke]

like pedophilia, case in point.

[Skybird]

By Haplo's logic, the world was created 44 years ago, on February 14th, 1967. Because I have not been around before that date to give testimony that the world already existed before my birth.

Wowh. I just realised the implication. The universe was born with and through me. Now am I a giant divine diety or not, eh? On your knees all you worthless lice or I cast my justice upon you and sentence you to eternal suffering on my iggy list!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Hypothesis: God created the world in 7 days.

Days...? Without a sun existing that revolved around earth (also still not existing)...? Time - in a universe non-created and thus time not being there?



A miracle! God finally proven!

[Skybird]