Dubb-Ya and waterboarding

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Letum

That looks a little like dismissing off-hand evidence that does not fit your point of view Subman.

Furthermore, saying it's ok because you have a legal right, doesn't mean much when
you have made it a legal right. that's just saying "it's ok because I say it's ok".

Lastly, I suspect you would not apply the same principles when advising Iran how to
deal with any American combatants it might find straying across the boarder.

Evidence of what? Shooting at US Troops? I don't need anymore evidence. Shoot them already.

Good thing no government cares of your opinion on the subject. We'd have a bunch of terrorists running around blowing up buildings constantly.

-S

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Good thing no government cares of your opinion on the subject. We'd have a bunch of terrorists running around blowing up buildings constantly.

Yes, because torturing suspected terrorists works as a deterrent.

[August]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Yes, because torturing suspected terrorists works as a deterrent.

Only if you get them to drop a dime on their confederates I guess.

[The WosMan]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Yes, because torturing suspected terrorists works as a deterrent.

Killing them sure does.

[SUBMAN1]

And here is the real problem - act like this, and you give up all rights. Case closed:

In separating lawful and unlawful combatants, the Third Convention creates a basic bargain for those engaged in an international armed conflict. Engage lawfully in combat and, if captured, you will receive the comprehensive treatment protections of the Convention. Ignore the laws of war, and you cannot seek the status given to lawful combatants. POW status is perhaps best seen then as an incentive to follow the rules in armed conflict. It also is a way to protect civilians more effectively: when combatants masquerade as civilians to mislead the enemy and avoid detection, civilian suffering increases as a tragic consequence of the failure of these combatants to adhere to the fundamental law of war principle of distinction between combatants and the civilian population.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by The WosMan

Killing them sure does.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/martyr

[Letum]

Originally Posted by The WosMan

Killing them sure does.

Yup, I bet the thought of death scares the crap outta suicide bombers.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

And here is the real problem - act like this, and you give up all rights. Case closed:

That only applies to members of the opposing army. Not civilian combatants and more importantly, not people who are not combatants at all, but have been bought from a 3rd party.

It does not condone torture either and has no moral backing whatsoever.

Finally, saying it's ok because you have a legal right, doesn't mean much when
you have made it a legal right. that's just saying "it's ok because I say it's ok".

[The WosMan]

Originally Posted by Letum

Yup, I bet the thought of death scares the crap outta suicide bombers.

Who cares about scaring them. I meant killing them like an exterminator solves a cockroach infestation.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Letum

That only applies to members of the opposing army. Not civilian combatants and more importantly, not people who are not combatants at all, but have been bought from a 3rd party.

It does not condone torture either and has no moral backing whatsoever.

Finally, saying it's ok because you have a legal right, doesn't mean much when
you have made it a legal right. that's just saying "it's ok because I say it's ok".

Well, I guess if you had some innocent third parties, then you mgiht have a point. Too bad we don't have any of those. As close as we got to innocent was Bin Ladens driver and I don't even buy that he was innocent completly.

And might I point out that we have no civi people here, only ones dressed as civi's, but happen to also have an AK-47 and shooting at our innocent troops.

-S

PS. I'm convinced if your country were over-run, you still be telling me that its not happening. Do you work for comical Ali or soemthing?

[Letum]

Originally Posted by The WosMan

Who cares about scaring them. I meant killing them like an exterminator solves a cockroach infestation.

Wanna know how many cockroaches we kill ever year? Billions!
How many are still around? Billions!

The way to stop something is to stop it's means of creation. The thing that creates
anti-American sentiment amongst Muslims is firstly a set of beliefs and ideas and
secondly the fact that Americans keep trying to kill them.

Neither of these things will be helped by killing more of them!

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Well, I guess if you had some innocent third parties, then you mgiht have a point.

I was refering tho the bounty hunters that America bought the G.Bay prisioners from.

[SUBMAN1]

Bushes statement on the Veto:

Message to the House of Representatives

I am returning herewith without my approval H.R. 2082, the "Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008." The bill would impede the United States Government's efforts to protect the American people effectively from terrorist attacks and other threats because it imposes several unnecessary and unacceptable burdens on our Intelligence Community.

Section 444 of the bill would impose additional Senate confirmation requirements on two national security positions the Director of the National Security Agency and the Director of the National Reconnaissance Office. The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (9/11 Commission) observed that the effectiveness of the Intelligence Community suffers due to delays in the confirmation process; section 444 would only aggravate those serious problems. Senior intelligence officials need to assume their duties and responsibilities as quickly as possible to address the pressing requirements of national security. Instead of addressing the 9/11 Commission's concern, the bill would subject two additional vital positions to a more protracted process of Senate confirmation. Apart from causing such potentially harmful delays, this unwarranted requirement for Senate confirmation would also risk injecting political pressure into these positions of technical expertise and public trust.


Section 413 would create a new Inspector General for the Intelligence Community. This new office is duplicative and unnecessary. Each intelligence community component already has an Inspector General, and the Inspector General of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence has been vested with all the legal powers of any inspector general to carry out investigations on matters under the jurisdiction of the Director of National Intelligence. There is no reason to commit taxpayer resources to an additional inspector general with competing jurisdiction over the same intelligence elements. Creating duplicative inspectors general, who may have inconsistent views on the handling of particular matters, has the potential to create conflicts and impede the Intelligence Community from efficiently resolving issues and carrying out its core mission. In addition, the creation of a new inspector general would add yet another position in the Intelligence Community subject to Senate confirmation, contrary to the 9/11 Commission's recommendations.


Section 327 of the bill would harm our national security by requiring any element of the Intelligence Community to use only the interrogation methods authorized in the Army Field Manual on Interrogations. It is vitally important that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) be allowed to maintain a separate and classified interrogation program. The Army Field Manual is directed at guiding the actions of nearly three million active duty and reserve military personnel in connection with the detention of lawful combatants during the course of traditional armed conflicts, but terrorists often are trained specifically to resist techniques prescribed in publicly available military regulations such as the Manual. The CIA's ability to conduct a separate and specialized interrogation program for terrorists who possess the most critical information in the War on Terror has helped the United States prevent a number of attacks, including plots to fly passenger airplanes into the Library Tower in Los Angeles and into Heathrow Airport or buildings in downtown London. While details of the current CIA program are classified, the Attorney General has reviewed it and determined that it is lawful under existing domestic and international law, including Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. I remain committed to an intelligence-gathering program that complies with our legal obligations and our basic values as a people. The United States opposes torture, and I remain committed to following international and domestic law regarding the humane treatment of people in its custody, including the "Detainee Treatment Act of 2005."


My disagreement over section 327 is not over any particular interrogation technique; for instance, it is not over waterboarding, which is not part of the current CIA program. Rather, my concern is the need to maintain a separate CIA program that will shield from disclosure to al Qaeda and other terrorists the interrogation techniques they may face upon capture. In accordance with a clear purpose of the "Military Commissions Act of 2006," my veto is intended to allow the continuation of a separate and classified CIA interrogation program that the Department of Justice has determined is lawful and that operates according to rules distinct from the more general rules applicable to the Department of Defense. While I will continue to work with the Congress on the implementation of laws passed in this area in recent years, I cannot sign into law a bill that would prevent me, and future Presidents, from authorizing the CIA to conduct a separate, lawful intelligence program, and from taking all lawful actions necessary to protect Americans from attack.


Other provisions of the bill purport to require the executive branch to submit information to the Congress that may be constitutionally protected from disclosure, including information the disclosure of which could impair foreign relations, the national security, the deliberative processes of the Executive, or the performance of the Executive's constitutional duties. Section 326, for example, would require that the executive branch report, on a very short deadline and in accordance with a rigid set of specific statutory requirements, the details of highly classified interrogation techniques and the confidential legal advice concerning them. The executive branch voluntarily has provided much of this information to appropriate members of Congress, demonstrating that questions concerning access to such information are best addressed through the customary practices and arrangements between the executive and legislative branches on such matters, rather than through the enactment of legislation.


In addition, section 406 would require a consolidated inventory of Special Access Programs (SAPs) to be submitted to the Congress. Special Access Programs concern the most sensitive information maintained by the Government, and SAP materials are maintained separately precisely to avoid the existence of one document that can serve as a roadmap to our Nation's most vital information. The executive branch must be permitted to present this information in a manner that does not jeopardize national security. The executive branch will continue to keep the Congress appropriately informed of the matters to which the provisions relate in accordance with the accommodation principles the Constitution contemplates and the executive and legislative branches have long and successfully used to address information sharing on matters of national security.


GEORGE W. BUSH
THE WHITE HOUSE,
March 8, 2008.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0080308-1.html

[The WosMan]

No, I am pretty sure you can kill enough of these guys to end the problem whereas cockroaches have had millions of years to perfect their survival. I think the reduction of violence in Iraq is testament to the fact that if you kill enough of them the problem can be reduced greatly.

[Letum]

Thats just absurd!

You cant kill ideas with guns.
even if I killed every Catholic in the world, you can bet that there will be a pope in 20 years time.

This is because the circumstances that cause people to become catholic would still be there.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Letum

Wanna know how many cockroaches we kill ever year? Billions!
How many are still around? Billions!

The way to stop something is to stop it's means of creation. The thing that creates
anti-American sentiment amongst Muslims is firstly a set of beliefs and ideas and
secondly the fact that Americans keep trying to kill them.

Neither of these things will be helped by killing more of them!

Well, now I can see why you don't get it. The problem? You CAN'T satisfy them. They think its their right to put you under Sharia law - and they intend to take over your country and mine and any means to that end is justified. You cannot appease them. You cannot appeal to them. You can only obey them. So I hope you like the way things are since they aren't 'ever' going to get any better. The only way to stop it is to contain them back to the Middle East and not let any of them out. THis is the only way to go with your cockroach theory. There is no alternative.

You didn't have this problem 75 years ago since they were all tribe like and never left. Now they have the world to travel and plan to make it their own at your expense.

Now the big point - they chop your head off by sawing it with a knife back and forth while you sit in a jump suit and scream while you pee your pants. Don't worry though, you will probably be diapered. And you are worried about a little waterboarding? I hope they come for your head. It will be a lesson well deserved.

I was refering tho the bounty hunters that America bought the G.Bay prisioners from.

If they were given bounties, then I'd have to say they were wanted for a crime, probably the killing of innocents.

Good luck man. It won't be long till the UK falls. There are already places you can't even travel in your own country because of this. They will be for your head in due time, and your ideas of appeasing them are simply going to make it happen all the faster.

-S

PS. Why don't you go to some of these areas and see what happens to you? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=539_1200249626&c=1