Russia to mark 70 years since Battle of Stalingrad

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

The Sixth Army could well have been saved had pig headed Hitler allowed a tactical withdrawal.

Perhaps this post is also pointless.. but whatever, some ppl just need pointless discussions as daily meal I guess..

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Yeah, but if we didn't have pointless debates there'd be something like two threads on this forum. I tried once to find an argumentative thread that was not pointless. I failed.

No surprises there then

[Jimbuna]

I doubt Paulus ever forgave Hitler for sacrificing his men because he soon became an outspoken critic of the Nazi regime:

Although he at first refused to collaborate with the Soviets, after the attempted assassination of Hitler on 20 July 1944, Paulus became a vocal critic of the Nazi regime while in Soviet captivity, joining the Russian-sponsored National Committee for a Free Germany and appealing to Germans to surrender. He later acted as a witness for the prosecution at the Nuremberg Trials. He was allowed to relocate to the German Democratic Republic in 1953, two years before the repatriation of the remaining German POWs (mostly other Stalingrad veterans) who had been designated war criminals by the Soviets.
During the Nuremberg Trials, Paulus was asked about the Stalingrad prisoners by a journalist. Paulus told the journalist to tell the wives and mothers that their husbands and sons were well. Of the 91,000 German prisoners taken at Stalingrad, half had died on the march to Siberian prison camps, and nearly as many died in captivity; only about 6,000 returned home.
From 1953 to 1956, he lived in Dresden, East Germany, where he worked as the civilian chief of the East German Military History Research Institute and not, as often wrongly described, as an inspector of police. In late 1956, he developed motor neurone disease and was eventually left paralyzed. He died in Dresden on 1 February 1957, exactly 14 years after he surrendered at Stalingrad. His body was brought for burial in Baden next to that of his wife, who had died in 1949, not having seen her husband since his departure for the Eastern front in the summer of 1942.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Paulus

[Oberon]

One thing that also has to be considered is that Hitler didn't fight at the front, not in the Second World War anyway, he had few ideas of what was going on other than what was filtered through to him, and he had quite the reputation of a temper so it was generally considered a bad idea to bring bad news to him. Now, to a person isolated in an ivory tower, hearing only filtered news from generals who don't want to bring bad news, or push bad news in as the minor part to the overbearing good news...basically, when you're surrounded by yes men, then you lose your grip on the reality of the situation. Thus, the longer the war progresses, the less of a grip on the reality of the battlefield he had, and thus his more direct intervention in battlefield plans became more of a hindrance than a help.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Troublous_Haze
Hitler was a great tactician from very begining, only in the later years of war he started to loose his grip on reality

No.. he was not.
He exploited the unwillingness and state of uncertainty of the allies -this can be given to his credit.
His real skills started to show as soon as the western powers and Russians had started fighting back.
With his aggressive , sometimes chaotic style and blind faith in superiority of German army he gained some short time but unsustainable goals and also defeats early on.
Very often against the better judgement of his generals.

He wasn't stupid idiot but lived in his own fantasy just like many leaders from the past and present.
The very early success gave him enough credit and fan-boys base to act foolishly till it was too late.

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I doubt Paulus ever forgave Hitler for sacrificing his men because he soon became an outspoken critic of the Nazi regime:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Paulus

For Fieldmarshal Paulus there was no other option just to critic nazi regime to save his own life in Russian captivity.

Originally Posted by MH

No.. he was not.
He exploited the unwillingness and state of uncertainty of the allies -this can be given to his credit.
His real skills started to show as soon as the western powers and Russians had started fighting back.
With his aggressive , sometimes chaotic style and blind faith in superiority of German army he gained some short time but unsustainable goals and also defeats early on.
Very often against the better judgement of his generals.

He wasn't stupid idiot but lived in his own fantasy just like many leaders from the past and present.
The very early success gave him enough credit and fan-boys base to act foolishly till it was too late.

With all respect to your post, it doesn't prove my quoted phrase is wrong..

Originally Posted by Oberon

One thing that also has to be considered is that Hitler didn't fight at the front, not in the Second World War anyway, he had few ideas of what was going on other than what was filtered through to him, and he had quite the reputation of a temper so it was generally considered a bad idea to bring bad news to him. Now, to a person isolated in an ivory tower, hearing only filtered news from generals who don't want to bring bad news, or push bad news in as the minor part to the overbearing good news...basically, when you're surrounded by yes men, then you lose your grip on the reality of the situation. Thus, the longer the war progresses, the less of a grip on the reality of the battlefield he had, and thus his more direct intervention in battlefield plans became more of a hindrance than a help.

Hitler did fought on the first world war. It does not change anything if he did not in the second ww.
Not to bring bad news to Hitler was a propaganda ministers J. Goebels part of duty. At Stalins regime it was very fimilar when high command officers past this event from one to another to report Stalin about bad news, for example L. Beriya never did this in his own carrer, he always past to bring up bad news for somebody else but not himself as he believed it could frustrate Stalin and somehow impact the safety of Beriya himself.. My next question should be: So what ?

[STEED]

If Paulus was so anti Nazi he would have been broadcasting from Moscow radio well before 1944. Paulus was blinkered in having faith in Hitler saving him and his army, the only thing he got right was not to blow his brains out when he became a Field Marshal which pissed Hitler off. From the Russian point of view to capture one of the planners of Barbarossa must have made them smile.

Originally Posted by STEED

If Paulus was so anti Nazi he would have been broadcasting from Moscow radio well before 1944. Paulus was blinkered in having faith in Hitler saving him and his army, the only thing he got right was not to blow his brains out when he became a Field Marshal which pissed Hitler off. From the Russian point of view to capture one of the planners of Barbarossa must have made them smile.

He held himself in the middle of golden circle to survive, when he realized the Hitler is pushing him to death, he surrendered to russians hoping that the higher the rank was the higher the chance was to survive. He did not cared bout ordinary soldiers at that moment.

In short Paulus was a coward of his own kind, even bigger then the Captain of the pocket battleship of Graff Spee at the Montevideo was. It's something that is related amongst them. But not the thing I would have gave them a medal for.

If there were japaneese soldiers at Stalingrad instead of Italians and Romanians to cover flanks I believe it would have been different outcome of the Stalingrad battle. But it's again from the category "what if" that I don't like to escalate.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Troublous_Haze

If there were japaneese soldiers at Stalingrad instead of Italians and Romanians to cover flanks I believe it would have been different outcome of the Stalingrad battle. But it's again from the category "what if" that I don't like to escalate.

Because the Imperial Japanese Army has always proven to be so highly capable of fighting a land campaign against a properly equipped enemy, right?

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Because the Imperial Japanese Army has always proven to be so highly capable of fighting a land campaign against a properly equipped enemy, right?

Correct. I sometimes let myself imagine from a common "what if" category if Japan was located in the location of Italy and Italy was located to where is now Japan Axis would be much stronger power as one that Hitler could rely on Berlin - Tokyo instead of Berlin - Roma.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Because the Imperial Japanese Army has always proven to be so highly capable of fighting a land campaign against a properly equipped enemy, right?

Nice piece of research...I doubt they'd be thrilled with the Russian winter either

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Nice piece of research...I doubt they'd be thrilled with the Russian winter either

Hey Jimbuna if your're so much into the positive side of the "correct" world order, what do you think of Chemberlains decission not declared war to USSR when she occupied Poland together with Germany in the Septmeber of 17 ?