Books banned from schools

[Kongo Otto]

Originally Posted by tater

I don't think that drawing swastikas IS a real problem in Germany, that's my point. I think that such free expression would receive the marginalized treatment it would deserve. Immediately post-war, when virtually every adult member of society (barring those who actively fought against it) was in fact at least passively complicit, it made sense. For the modern generations of Germans, there is nothing to see, move along.

So to be clear, I think that germany has gone well beyond the stage where such limitations do anything useful. You're better than that.

So that's the point. Banning expression is pretty much never the right solution.

Well the swastikas have been banned some 30 or 35 years ago, i cant even remember.
You know we dont need legalization of swastikas, because the history is all around us.
I live in Augsburg not 300 Meters away from the Citizens Registrations Office, as i moved to Augsburg, i went there to get my registration and there was a memorial Plate at the building. At the Place was the local Gestapo Jail until it was destroyed by allied bombs in 1944.
You know alone in Augsburg are at least 20 Places with such kind of a history. I could make a tour with you in the Munich Augsburg Landsberg/Lech Triangle and we would need at least one week to see all the Place with a Nazi History.
Its easy for you guys over there in the USA to say, you are not free because you ban symbols or the original Nazi Party, yeah all those nice looking Parades with all the Flags at History Channel, but behind these flags and this party there was the terror and the massmurder.
We dont need swastikas beeing legal, we see swastikas with our mental eyes every day, where ever we go our History follows us permanently.

And should anybody ever dare to show a swastika in a place where iam around, i take his flag and shove it up his a@@.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Kongo Otto

Well the swastikas have been banned some 30 or 35 years ago, i cant even remember.
You know we dont need legalization of swastikas, because the history is all around us.
I live in Augsburg not 300 Meters away from the Citizens Registrations Office, as i moved to Augsburg, i went there to get my registration and there was a memorial Plate at the building. At the Place was the local Gestapo Jail until it was destroyed by allied bombs in 1944.
You know alone in Augsburg are at least 20 Places with such kind of a history. I could make a tour with you in the Munich Augsburg Landsberg/Lech Triangle and we would need at least one week to see all the Place with a Nazi History.
Its easy for you guys over there in the USA to say, you are not free because you ban symbols or the original Nazi Party, yeah all those nice looking Parades with all the Flags at History Channel, but behind these flags and this party there was the terror and the massmurder.
We dont need swastikas beeing legal, we see swastikas with our mental eyes every day, where ever we go our History follows us permanently.

And should anybody ever dare to show a swastika in a place where iam around, i take his flag and shove it up his a@@.

But the swastika is just a freaking symbol! We could ban the hammer and sickle as well because the soviets used it.

And even more, should we ban nazi's? How despicable their ideology may be, we have to give them a voice. We have to combat them by reason and argument. If we prosecute people for simply being a nazi, we're not much better than the nazis themselves who prosecuted their political enemies as well, simply for being political enemies.

Same goes for symbols. If we ban the swastika we lower ourselves to the level of the nazis. They banned a whole font because they deemed it "Judenlettern". The current Germans ban a certain type of cross because they deem it a Nazi symbol. See the parallelism?


EDIT: that said, TTM simply went way too far with his comment. If not being allowed to draw a swastika is his idea of a "lessor [sic] country" with limited freedom, I'd like to have a talk with him about how things in the US are (Assange anyone?). But then again, according to his own statements that would make the US a "lessor country" so there's probably not much to talk about

[Kongo Otto]

DarkFish is it ok when i am answering your post tomorow, i am to tired right now and cant find some sleep.

The Swastika isn't even a Nazi Symbol, I believe, yeah the Nazis made it their own but it has nothing to do with the Nazis.

Doesn't the Finnish Airforce use a Swastika? Does that make the Finnish Airforce a Nazi Airforce?

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Rilder

Doesn't the Finnish Airforce use a Swastika? Does that make the Finnish Airforce a Nazi Airforce?

Not anymore, but we used to.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Air_Force) in its infinite wisdom tells us:

Von Rosen had painted his personal good luck charm on the Thulin Typ D aircraft. This charm – a blue swastika, the ancient symbol of good luck – was adopted as the insignia of the Finnish Air Force. The white circular background was created when the Finns tried to paint over the advertisement from the Thulin air academy.[5] The swastika was officially taken into use after an order by Mannerheim on 18 March 1918. The FAF had to change the insignia after 1945, due to an Allied Control Commission decree, where the swastika had to be abandoned due to its association with Nazism.

Edited to add: though as a matter of fact, that article has an interesting picture of the FAF's flag in it. I don't know if they use that anymore, but I'm sure someone else does.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Rilder

The Swastika isn't even a Nazi Symbol,

Rudyard Kipling illustrated his books with the swastika symbol- the "nazi one" and the opposite. I mean those books concerning India ofc.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by tater

I don't think that drawing swastikas IS a real problem in Germany, that's my point. I think that such free expression would receive the marginalized treatment it would deserve. Immediately post-war, when virtually every adult member of society (barring those who actively fought against it) was in fact at least passively complicit, it made sense. For the modern generations of Germans, there is nothing to see, move along.

So to be clear, I think that germany has gone well beyond the stage where such limitations do anything useful. You're better than that.

So that's the point. Banning expression is pretty much never the right solution.

Banning expression, I guess the debate is public or private expression. I don't think under any circumstance books should be banned, but I can understand what is acceptable required reading. Maybe the bigger problem is the teaching, teaching and learning from that historic time. I'm not black, so I'm not sure how I would feel about required reading that dealt with past racism on novel level using the N word.

The same with the Confederate flag being flown over state capitals. I love southern history and own a few old battleflags myself, but agree the flag has no place on a current public building....books, not so sure.

[Kongo Otto]

Originally Posted by Rilder

The Swastika isn't even a Nazi Symbol, I believe, yeah the Nazis made it their own but it has nothing to do with the Nazis.

Doesn't the Finnish Airforce use a Swastika? Does that make the Finnish Airforce a Nazi Airforce?

I Think we should bring a little clearance into the discussion.
Firts of all swastikas are not illegal per se in Germany, illegal are the sign and the Flags from the NSDAP and its Underorganisations and the swastikas used in them.
If the Finnish Air Force would still use a blue swastika it would be legal in Germany because its not a sign of forementioned Organisations.

For more informations read this article (its in english language):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafge...ch_section_86a

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Kongo Otto

I Think we should bring a little clearance into the discussion.
Firts of all swastikas are not illegal per se in Germany, illegal are the sign and the Flags from the NSDAP and its Underorganisations and the swastikas used in them.
If the Finnish Air Force would still use a blue swastika it would be legal in Germany because its not a sign of forementioned Organisations.

For more informations read this article (its in english language):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafge...ch_section_86a

That pretty much addresses my post as well. I was mistaken in my belief that the swastika is illegal altogether.

That still leaves the question if we should prohibit nazi organisations.

[Kongo Otto]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

That still leaves the question if we should prohibit nazi organisations.

Well i think this is a theoretical question. Even if the sign from the NSDAP and its Organisation would be allowed, todays Neo Nazis would not use them. This sign are so hated they would cause severe damage to their political issues. We have Neo Nazi Parties here in germany like the NPD and the DVU and some others. They wouldnt call themselves NSDAP again, these guys want to make the public believe they have changed, so the use of old signs and Names would make them even much more unbelievable as they are right now.

And of course you are right when yo say: "We have to combat them by reason and argument."
This happens here in Germany, very often and not just by the Young People also the older ones.
You said "We have to give them a voice"
They have their voice, just almost nobody is listen.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by Rilder

The Swastika isn't even a Nazi Symbol, I believe, yeah the Nazis made it their own but it has nothing to do with the Nazis.

Doesn't the Finnish Airforce use a Swastika? Does that make the Finnish Airforce a Nazi Airforce?

The swastika is a very ancient symbol that was generally used to represent power (in one form or another). It was heavily used throughout Asia, in India/China/Japan as being incorporated into their statues, patterns or accessories.

What is a real shame is that Hitler chose such an ancient and well established symbol to be their idol. Even if you just pick up a couple of old kung-fu (period style) movies you're gonna see that symbol all over the place, which in context was several thousand years before Hitler was even born!

When it comes to this particular symbol one is always treatind on thin ice; it really shouldn't have to be so draconian. It is the context in which it is used (or more appropriately abused) that it gets corrupted. There is a line that needs to be defined between abuse and history. To ignore our history and shove it under the mat we are failing to learn the messages taught. In their native form, I see absolutely no reason why (now) offensive language/images should be censored, to deny it is to deny our history and who we are. I'm 1/4 Apache myself and never felt insulted or defiled when reading about people referring to my people as "Injuns", that was the dialect of the day and censoring it isn't going to change anything.

In cases where the material was meant to be inflamatory or raise hatred that deserves scrutiny, when it was done historically at a time when such items were the accepcted norm it is part of us whether we like it not. We shouldn't encourage kids to use some of these terms/symbols but they should know that they weren't alway meant as derrogatory are hateful in manner.

[Skybird]

The Nazis did a lot of damage to German - and other - culture. They also hijacked the symbols of Nordic runes, namely the swastika and the SS-runes. But you canot deny the histiorical fqact that now these symbols are associated with the Nazi context, and that probably this context now dominates the ancient roots of the symbols being abused. More horror than good things have been done under these symbols, and the Nazis stand for one of the greatest crimes and catastrophes in the history of mankind.

[Biggles]

I'm sure you folks has already seen this one but...

heheheh...