New Zealand no longer a christian country

[Happy Times]

I can accept the belief in God without any worldly proof. But the Bible is not a virginal document. It is old and there are many versions of it to choose from. I can't see any absolutism in there since there is more than one source.

Exactly.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Hitman

I'm no atheist, quite the opposite. I firmly believe in the existance of an almighty God, creator of everything. Yet I refuse explicitely any of the major existing cults (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) as I can't rationally accept a religion based upon "revelation". I don't say that ALL christians don't think for themselves (Kant was a good example of the opposite), but based on my conversations with a good amount of them, I find that 99% follow their religion basically because they were taught so. Few, if any, have taken the interest of reading (specially philosophy) and trying to make their own conclusions instead of simply choosing to believe what others say.

IMO it is an offence against God to have an intelligence and not use it to draw your own conclussions about you, God and all that implies, but instead believing blindly what others say that God is or wants. It might be easier, but it is not necessarily the best.

This is where your at....

Matthew 11

[27] All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


The spirit of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....until you seek Him in faith you will never find Him and you must enter in by the door.I really think you may not be looking closely enough at those whom you say are Christians or really asked them "How they came to believe" in what they profess.I personally know two individuals who have died on the table and have had experiences that changed them forever...they had God "Revealed" to them...this is the only way one comes to know God or be known by Him.You hear anyone knocking?

Easier to be a Christian?...hum resist eye for an eye...resist every temptation that America offers? hum I think it is easier not to believe but once God reveals His son to one it is nay impossible to forget.

Even demons believe in God,,,believeing is not the same as knowing.

A reminder to those who have life with Jesus Christ....the bible to the man without Christ is like trying to read korean, coded with an enigma machine, written backwards....they have no clue and no starting point, to argue with one who enters not in by the door is futile and if he tries to enter elsewhere he is a thief.Pray for them.

@Iceman

And there's the standard response -everyone else thats not a "Beleiver" is an idiot or some sort of lesser person for not understanding the "Big" truth thats revealed in the Bible.

One question - how do you know your gods the real one? , Talmud says the jewish ones the real one , Koran says the muslim ones the real one , every religion in the world says theirs is real and the others are heretical (except possiblyfor Buddism).

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by darius359au

One question - how do you know your gods the real one? , Talmud says the jewish ones the real one

More accurately, the Torah - the "5 Books of Moses". Everything in the Talmud is teachings based on and interpretations of the Torah.

Been here before.

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

More accurately, the Torah - the "5 Books of Moses". Everything in the Talmud is teachings based on and interpretations of the Torah.

Been here before.

sorry ,my bad

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by darius359au

@Iceman

And there's the standard response -everyone else thats not a "Beleiver" is an idiot or some sort of lesser person for not understanding the "Big" truth thats revealed in the Bible.

One question - how do you know your gods the real one? , Talmud says the jewish ones the real one , Koran says the muslim ones the real one , every religion in the world says theirs is real and the others are heretical (except possiblyfor Buddism).

Was not meant that way...sorry you took it like that but it was really meant for the young in Christ who have trouble understanding why others can't see....the bible was written in code that those who do not have the key can never fully grasp it's deep and profound teachings...it is not by human design it is divine.

It is not that your an idiot or lesser again refer to Matthew 11:27...it is not of any "human" doing, the gift of life eternal is just that a gift....it is not earned so no man may boast.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge not the end.

God chooses to whom he will reveal the Son....from there the "Choice" is yours.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Iceman

the bible was written in code that those who do not have the key can never fully grasp it's deep and profound teachings...it is not by human design it is divine.

It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.
- Deuteronomy 30:12-14

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.
- Deuteronomy 30:12-14

Amen

Proverbs 6
[23] For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

[Happy Times]

the bible was written in code that those who do not have the key can never fully grasp it's deep and profound teachings...it is not by human design it is divine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_bo..._Old_Testament

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_bo..._New_Testament

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English...s_of_the_Bible

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...e_translations



Theres a code in these links. People can unlock it if they are not fundamentalists.

[Hitman]

but if God were provable by logic then there would be no atheists. You cannot prove or disprove the existence of God by logic alone

The existance of God can be proved by logic reasoning. There are many philosophical essays about that. And I personally believe it can be prooved by oposition or order and chaos. Order means an intelligence with the power to ordenate, chaos is the opposite. The simple fact of the universe being a perfect system that doesn't tear apart in particles proofs that an intelligence created it as a logical system. Chaos can't be order by definition, they are mutually excluding. And order means always intelligence, i.e. an action taken with a purpose. Thus it is my firm belief that the universus keeps working and tied together because the same intelligence who created it keeps it lile that.

Yet that might not please the churches and cults who pretend to have the monopoly in interpretating God's will and telling all of us about His essence, which is the main reason why so many have been silenced. No greater danger exists for a church than people who think independently

I really think you may not be looking closely enough at those whom you say are Christians or really asked them "How they came to believe" in what they profess.

Quite the opposite. I have several friends and some relatives who belong to the Opus Dei.:hmm:

they had God "Revealed" to them...this is the only way one comes to know God or be known by Him

That is exactly the problem. I refuse to believe that a God who creates all of us and gives us intelligence as well as natural laws that are present in any society and time will later limit the access to the faith to a few ones whom he revelates everything. IMO the real revelation comes from meditation and study of the nature and all things God created, never from a what a guy who has had a "revelation" tells you. You know two cases of people who had a revelation that changed their lifes. Very well. I know (Due to my real life job) several of cases of people who killed their mother with a knife because God told them so. How can you as third party tell the difference between a divine revelation and an illness if even the ones who experiment it can't?. What God wants from everyone must be available to everyone, not to those who get a "revelation" as if it were a lottery or something like that. Otherwise God is not allowing everyone to be able to choose and distinguish good and wrong, he would just be letting the luck decide where you are born and thus which religious reference your nation has (Moses, Chirst, Muhammad). A universal message is per definition universal, not limited to "chosen ones"

Of course that is all my personal point of view and I'm not pretending to convince you. I just want to explain it in the frame of this debate.

But the Bible isn't the word of God. If we do assume then that it is God's word as written some thousands of years ago then we can call the Bible "God's word filtered through the translations and re-writings of many hands over centuries". You can say what you will about the need for faith in God, but the bible is altogether different. It is a book which has been routinely used and manipulated by all sorts of power mongers for centuries. How can you have faith in a book which was not personally delivered to you by god, but delivered by a string of mortal, and unlike God, imperfect people who may or may not have erred in their translations, transcriptions, or been malicious in their alterations of it?

I can accept the belief in God without any worldly proof. But the Bible is not a virginal document. It is old and there are many versions of it to choose from. I can't see any absolutism in there since there is more than one source.

My view also. I would never question the correctness of Iceman's faith in God, I can well concur in that. Yet faith is a relationship with God, not with another man (imperfect) who says what he thinks God wants. Even if you accepted revelation as a source of faith -which I don't- that revelation would be limited to the one who received it, because no human being can per definition transmit to other with words or anything else the experience of having God act directly on you. You can narrate your personal and subjective experience from your limited point of view, and thus you can't transmit the experience in its purity.

[Iceman]

Seek...Hitman I hope you did not misunderstand the post I made up there...true knowledge of God is thru revelation but what person have you ever known in any case where revelation was simply dropped on someones head....it was sought after....whether you know it or not at the time....something was being sought...answers,truth, or whatever....I personally think it is one way God works so after all your seeking he reveals Himself so the seeker in the end will never turn away...because he will have seen that there there is nothing without Him.

This is the case with me....I have seen it all, or enough ...there is nothing without God.

I consider Moses as well...wasn't neccessarily looking for God but kinda worked out that way in the end.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Seek...

Deep...

[spdklls]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Men wrote the bible and later canonized it. That is fact and you cant possibly argue against that.

Exactly what I was going to say! God positively did not write the Bible!

Letum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Avon Lady
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letum
Jolly good!
The less organised religion in the world; the better!

Less is more.


And none is all!

I hope to see the day when each person lives life by their own personal, informed philosophy instead of the dogmas of one or another religion passed down via indoctrination, arrogant preaching and cultural exspectations.

This may be agnostic to religion, but it is the only way we'll ever see 'Peace on Earth'. As long as men worship dieties they are going to fight with those who differ in belief.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by spdklls

Exactly what I was going to say! God positively did not write the Bible!

And you know this because?

Ah, because you believe it's true. :hmm:

This may be agnostic to religion, but it is the only way we'll ever see 'Peace on Earth'. As long as men worship dieties they are going to fight with those who differ in belief.

Most of the major wars and their losses of life (100's of miillions) in the last century were not related to deities of any sort.

Truth (whatever that is) in all sphere's, will bring peace.

EDIT: Here, too, as I hinted earlier, less turns out to be more.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by spdklls

This may be agnostic to religion, but it is the only way we'll ever see 'Peace on Earth'. As long as men worship dieties they are going to fight with those who differ in belief.

Nooo! It's not at all agnostic!
It is anti-organised, collective religion, but pro personal phillosophy. That may include dieties or gods.