Can anyone explain to me why they're not depressed by games that always end in death?

[Chock]

Because many simulations end up with deaths or at least the simulation of that result, one could be forgiven for thinking that people who play them are similarly disposed to be obsessed with it. But for me nothing could be further from the truth.

I was actually talking about this with one of my friends the other day, and we came to the conclusion that if anyone were to wander into our houses and spot the bookshelves groaning under the weight of books on fighters, bombers, warships tanks battles etc, they might draw the conclusion that we were just days away from going up a clocktower and becoming the latest person to go postal with a sniper rifle!

However, if such a person looked a little closer, in amongst those books, they would spot many biographies and autobiographies of the men - and sometimes women - who worked those machines. If they spotted that, they'd have an idea as to where we were really coming from, which is the interest stemming from how humans deal with probably the most trying and stressful situation anyone could ever find themselves in, i.e. a war.

Obviously an interest in the machines develops too, but at the heart of at least my obsession with stuff like that (which incidentally does include some civilian aircraft and ships too), is the human side of things.

So, looking over at my shelves, from here I can see: Heinz Knocke's I Flew for the Fuhrer; Ulrich Steinhilper's Spitfire on my Tail; Herbert A Werner's Iron Coffins; Leonard Moseley's Faces from the Flames; Hanna Reitsch's The Sky My Kingdom; V.M. Yeat's Winged Victory; Ira Jones' King of Air Fighters; Richard Hillary's The Last Enemy etc, etc.

None of these celebrate war or death in any way shape or form, and are all quite inspiring to read, as they mainly concentrate on seeing the best of people, rather than the worst. It's this that defines me personally, and I would say that the more I know about war and such, the more I am actually against it, but it doesn't mean I don't find simulating it interesting or even enjoyable, because for me, killing people in a simulation is exactly where it belongs, not in real life, and there is much we can learn from the simulated experience and hopefully avoid a repeat.

And without sounding too snooty, I enjoy a huge explosion as much as the next person!

[rcocean]

Just for historical accuracy. There were about 1600 pacific patrols and about 40 subs were sunk by Japanese ASW. So thats about 1 in 40 as oppossed to 1 in 50. But you're right, about 10 percent of the Sub commanders ended up being KIA or POW.

This is a GAME. So there is more action, more sinkings, and more deaths than histroically accurate. In 1600 patrols, US subs sighted 8000 ships, attacked 4000 and sunk about 1500.

IRL, if did 5 patrols you probably attacked 13 ships and sunk 4 or 5. In the game you can do that in 1 patrol.

Whats amazing is how many close calls US subs had despite the so-called weak Japanese ASW. Read some of the patrol reports and you can see all the close calls, lucky escapes, and the razor thin margin between survivial and being sunk. Subs miss mines by inches, and again and again if the lookouts had been lax or the commander had made the wrong split second decision the sub would have been lost.

[DiveMonkey]

Are there any statistics on how US subs were lost?
I mean, how many to air attack?, how many to depth charge?, how many to catastrophic equipment failure?

I'd like to see more equipment failure, remember SHII, I don't know if it was a mod but I could over heat the diesels running ahead flank for long periods of time. Never happened in SHIII.

Air attacks I think are too easy, way to much notice. Only once in almost three months at sea (total) has an air attack even come close. Was the only one to even get a chance to drop a bomb before I dived.

These ain't game\mod killers, RFB is very challenging. Just finding the enemy has become half the sim and when I do find em, I take great pleasure in sending em to the bottom.

Was just doing some google on it. Guess there's really no way of knowing how they were sunk.
was surprised by how many sunk due to running aground or possibly into enemy ships.
was also surprised by how much time sub crews got off...two weeks off after each patrol, patrols lasting between 45 and 60 days.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by rcocean

This is a GAME. So there is more action, more sinkings, and more deaths than histroically accurate.

This is also a SIMULATION so (even though it's undoubtedly also a GAME) there shouldn't be more action, more sinkings, and more deaths than historically accurate. It can be both a game and a simulation, and the fact that it's one does not preclude it from being the other.

[GnarPow]

I think you need a vacation, Please shut off the computer and give it to someone you can trust who will promise not to give it to your for a specified amount of time and counseling

What do you call ***Playing SH4***? Do you tell your family your hopping into your sub now and dont call you for 2 months? Do you play at 1x time compression and never above that? because your obviously not playing it like a simulation if time is going by faster than what it does in reality. Everything must be EXACTLY like reality right? so disable time compression you cheating bastard! Your cheating yourself out of 100% simulation and that is just wrong, why play if your just going to cheat yourself out of what you payed good $$ for? Also on that note dont ever watch a replay either because there is no way to record the actually happenings from any angle in real life, so that is fake as well...

Doesnt sound like much fun, does it? didnt think so

[kakemann]

Originally Posted by FAdmiral

To the left side is REALISTIC
To the right side is FUN
All gamers are somewhere in between
Debates on where you fall are seemingly endless
I'm happy its just a game cause I know I would NOT be happy fighting
in a real WW2 sub

JIM

Well said! Find a setting (or a mod) which is good for your needs!
Someone prefers more historical feel, someone just wants harder enemies.

I think there are mods for everyone here at Subsim!

[Beery]

Originally Posted by GnarPow

I think you need a vacation, Please shut off the computer and give it to someone you can trust who will promise not to give it to your for a specified amount of time and counseling

The interesting thing is I've maintained a respectful tone throughout this thread. It was a simple question. But some of the responses have been downright rude. Now I'm wondering what it is about this line of questioning that makes some people behave this way?

As for your argument, realism is not the same as reality. For realism only the things in the sim have to be realistic, NOT the stuff outside the sim. Time compression is not unrealistic if the simulated crew of the sub are experiencing time at 1:1, and they are.

[kakemann]

Originally Posted by Beery

The interesting thing is I've maintained a respectful tone throughout this thread. It was a simple question. But some of the responses have been downright rude. Now I'm wondering what it is about this line of questioning that makes some people behave this way?

Beery - it's no point. This guy just wants to argue for no reason!
Some people just enjoy teasing or being rude.

[swash]

When I leave base on a patrol, I have every intention of returning the boat and crew.

If I'm detected by an escort before getting into attack position on a convoy, my immediate goal changes from attack to evade, even if it means letting the convoy slip by so my boat isn't destroyed.

Everyone plays the program (game or sim, you decide) different, just like how much salt someone prefers on their potatoes or how well done they want their steak.

I made the mistake of being in a hurry to get into a harbor to photograph some ships, slipped inside the destroyer patrol, running deep and silent and went to x32 time compression

swish, swish, swish.... BOOM BOOM

My mistake for rushing the game at TC. On the PC we can just load the last saved game and learn from the mistake to not do it again. The only depressing thing is realizing you didn't save

[DiveMonkey]

Yea, guy needs to ease up a bit.
No one telling anyone they cant play the way they want to play!
I don't think Beery's going to kick in your door if you take a few personal liberties with his mod.

LOL! I have a bit of FTT in mine, a touch of better scopes and my own reload times...no big deal

[kakemann]

Dive Monkey. Good to take some here to find whats best for you. There are a lot of good stuff out there. Packs like RFP, FTT and single mods.

Find what suits your own needs! We all wants to enjoy the game! Thats whats important, right?

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Beery

The interesting thing is I've maintained a respectful tone throughout this thread. It was a simple question. But some of the responses have been downright rude. Now I'm wondering what it is about this line of questioning that makes some people behave this way?

Yeah, unfortunately, some of the wider web jerk-ness gets in here from time to time.

[Calbeck]

What's to be depressed about? This is all zeroes and ones.

Now, I DO respect the deaths of the very real people who fought and sacrificed in the Second World War. And IF my men and boat were real I would care deeply about their loss.

But this is zeroes and ones, and the emotional impact revolves around one's own personal skill in managing assets and developing/executing tactics. This is no more "bloody" than a game of chess, and the attraction has a similar basis.

[Chock]

Are there any statistics on how US subs were lost?
I mean, how many to air attack?, how many to depth charge?, how many to catastrophic equipment failure?

DiveMonkey, there are a few sites with this info, here is one of the more concise ones:

http://www.bluejacket.com/ww2_ship_loss3.html

[donut]

05-13-2007, 01:38 PM #29 perisher
Navy Dude


The game encourages you to risk all, and it's easy to do because, if the worst comes to the worst, you can just start a new career. Again we come back to "whatever floats your submarine", but I personally think the Errol Flynn's should be catered for in single patrols, while the career game should be rewarding survival more. I find great satisfaction in surviving a career with most of my original crew and a respectable tonnage total. I miss the SH3 Commander's career end story, which rounded off a war career nicely.

That said, if SH4 was any good my short wave radio would crackle in a thunderstorm, I mean just where is the realism?

I have thought,many Subsimersbrothers You must have a death wish. Although my crew would appreciate being rewarded by ending war,& doing my job,getting them,& boat safely home. "The career game should be rewarding survival more." Death is part of life,if life is good=death is also good.Since non of us have been there,& returned,there are none to tell. This game's appeal,is about World War,
death/overkill,how to overcome/make life more rewarding.Peace brothersYou might have to break a few eggs to make an omelet