Unresolved Issues...

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

Originally Posted by John Channing

The chief objection seems to be that someone was aggresively supporting the game for a change.

JCC

I have no issue with someone who enjoys the game for what it is and speaks up about the good parts in a polite manner, same as you have no problem with someone who feels that the games flaws impede on their enjoyment on the game and speak about their dislike for the game in a polite manner. The chief objection, from both sides was the AGGRESSIVE approach.

A quote from Gizzmoe on the earlier locked thread:

This thread is not about the fact that people criticise SH4, it´s about how some people do that.

A note from me on this thread:

This thread is not about the fact that people criticise those who criticise SH4, it's about how some people do that.

When a Moderator condemns the ill manner in which objections are being made on one side, yet condones and supports that same ill manner on the other side how can there be balance and fairness? That is what I am interested in. All you seem interested in is being right.

Originally Posted by Kant Schwimm

I agree with these two

Cant believe I wasted my time on this thread

From wikipedia:

Disclaimer:
A disclaimer is generally any statement intended to specify or delimit the scope of rights and obligations that may be exercised and enforced by parties in a legally-recognized relationship. In contrast to other terms for legally operative language, the term "disclaimer" usually implies situations that involve some level of uncertainty, waiver, or risk.


A disclaimer may specify mutually-agreed and privately-arranged terms and conditions as part of a contract; or may specify warnings or expectations to the general public (or some other class of persons) in order to fulfill a duty of care owed to prevent unreasonable risk of harm or injury. Some disclaimers are intended to limit exposure to damages after a harm or injury has already been suffered. Additionally, some kinds of disclaimers may represent a voluntary waiver of a right or obligation that may be owed to the disclaimant.


I've highlighted the important parts. Any questions?

[Spectre-63]

On this topic, I'll just say this: there comes a point where dredging up the same faults in a game becomes counter-productive. I know I've been guilty of belaboring a point to this extent in the past (most notably with a couple of flight sims that readers from FrugalsWorld may be familiar with), so I'm no better than those who are doing so here and now. I can see now that continuing to beat the dead horse does wind up affecting the overall tone and attractiveness of a forum, especially to the developers who choose to frequent the forums. How likely would you be to continue to hang out in a place where the majority of the posts were ones that were condemning a project you'd spent a year or two working on? Does squaring off in the typical "fanboy" vs "troll" argument really help things?

Don't get me wrong: bugs absolutely should be brought to the attention of the developers and there are a few threads here designed around that purpose. Continuing to spout how the product is "crap" or "a waste of time/money" or "screwed up" does nothing to add to the forum and makes me seriously rethink my decision to spend time here. I believe that the Moderators are responsible not only for enforcing the rules of the forum, but for ensuring it remains an attractive place to it's target audience. If that means that a few threads need to be closed to get the point across, so be it.

I know that on other forums continuing to bring up a topic that has been closed for discussion by a moderator is sufficient cause to give the member a short leave of absence. If things continue along the same lines here, it may not be a bad idea for the moderation staff to consider.

My two cents as a long time reader/short time member.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Spectre-63

...
Don't get me wrong: bugs absolutely should be brought to the attention of the developers and there are a few threads here designed around that purpose. Continuing to spout how the product is "crap" or "a waste of time/money" or "screwed up" does nothing to add to the forum and makes me seriously rethink my decision to spend time here.
...
I know that on other forums continuing to bring up a topic that has been closed for discussion by a moderator is sufficient cause to give the member a short leave of absence. If things continue along the same lines here, it may not be a bad idea for the moderation staff to consider.

My two cents as a long time reader/short time member.

Well said, and please stick around!!

[Spectre-63]

appreciate the post feedback, joea.

It's really sad: all these negative posts really have made me less eager to come and see the latest news on SH4. Knowing that I'll have to wade thru several "SH4 is tEh SUCK!" posts really doesn't get me hot 'n' bothered for a visit.

Hoping the mods'll slap some folks around and get it back to the way it was when I first joined: helpful and friendly.

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

Originally Posted by Spectre-63

On this topic, I'll just say this: there comes a point where dredging up the same faults in a game becomes counter-productive. I know I've been guilty of belaboring a point to this extent in the past (most notably with a couple of flight sims that readers from FrugalsWorld may be familiar with), so I'm no better than those who are doing so here and now. I can see now that continuing to beat the dead horse does wind up affecting the overall tone and attractiveness of a forum, especially to the developers who choose to frequent the forums. How likely would you be to continue to hang out in a place where the majority of the posts were ones that were condemning a project you'd spent a year or two working on? Does squaring off in the typical "fanboy" vs "troll" argument really help things?

Don't get me wrong: bugs absolutely should be brought to the attention of the developers and there are a few threads here designed around that purpose. Continuing to spout how the product is "crap" or "a waste of time/money" or "screwed up" does nothing to add to the forum and makes me seriously rethink my decision to spend time here. I believe that the Moderators are responsible not only for enforcing the rules of the forum, but for ensuring it remains an attractive place to it's target audience. If that means that a few threads need to be closed to get the point across, so be it.

I know that on other forums continuing to bring up a topic that has been closed for discussion by a moderator is sufficient cause to give the member a short leave of absence. If things continue along the same lines here, it may not be a bad idea for the moderation staff to consider.

My two cents as a long time reader/short time member.

I understand where you are coming from, Shipmatey and completely agree with you. However, I feel I need to point out that this thread was not created to try settle the issue of who is right and who is wrong or to debate the pros and cons of the game. There are strong opinions on both sides, as is to be expected in a community who love their hobby as much as we do. But there is also a section on both sides who continue to boil the whole thing down to the 'Fanboy' vs 'Troll' argument and while no-one wants that, there is a huge shortfall in how this whole issue has been handled by the Moderators. Group A have been criticised and told to stop what they are doing, Group B haven't even though both are using the same belligerent methods to put across their point. I personally don't support either Group A or Group B, both are entitled to their say if it's done in the right way, but if a rule of sorts is going to be enforced for one group it should be enforced for the other, no?

[Spectre-63]

I'll agree with you that rules are worthless if they're not equally applied but will also say this: the actions of the moderators in my opinion were taken to stop a potentially harmful trend on the part of some of the posters. Some, Grunt for example, were told repeatedly to amend their habits and, unfortunately, he went one (or more) step(s) too far and it cost him his right to post. Some of the posts made in the 'Stop Moaning' thread went a bit over the top and there was a healthy dose of sarcasm in some of the posts made there. Again, in my opinion, they may have simply chosen to come down on the greater of the two 'evils' and, as a result, came down on those whose posts were most harmful to the tone of the board.

In a perfect world, yes, all moderators would remain uninvolved and, well, moderate in all disagreements. The unfortunate reality is that the moderators are human beings, fallible, and have their own opinions. Ultimately, only the owner of the board can determine if the moderators have overstepped their bounds and, if he feels that's so, correct them. Mods don't report to members, otherwise they wouldn't be very effective mods.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Spectre-63

On this topic, I'll just say this: there comes a point where dredging up the same faults in a game becomes counter-productive. I know I've been guilty of belaboring a point to this extent in the past (most notably with a couple of flight sims that readers from FrugalsWorld may be familiar with), so I'm no better than those who are doing so here and now. I can see now that continuing to beat the dead horse does wind up affecting the overall tone and attractiveness of a forum, especially to the developers who choose to frequent the forums. How likely would you be to continue to hang out in a place where the majority of the posts were ones that were condemning a project you'd spent a year or two working on? Does squaring off in the typical "fanboy" vs "troll" argument really help things?

Don't get me wrong: bugs absolutely should be brought to the attention of the developers and there are a few threads here designed around that purpose. Continuing to spout how the product is "crap" or "a waste of time/money" or "screwed up" does nothing to add to the forum and makes me seriously rethink my decision to spend time here. I believe that the Moderators are responsible not only for enforcing the rules of the forum, but for ensuring it remains an attractive place to it's target audience. If that means that a few threads need to be closed to get the point across, so be it.

I know that on other forums continuing to bring up a topic that has been closed for discussion by a moderator is sufficient cause to give the member a short leave of absence. If things continue along the same lines here, it may not be a bad idea for the moderation staff to consider.

My two cents as a long time reader/short time member.

2 cents well spent. Agreed 100%.

It's really sad: all these negative posts really have made me less eager to come and see the latest news on SH4. Knowing that I'll have to wade thru several "SH4 is tEh SUCK!" posts really doesn't get me hot 'n' bothered for a visit.

Hoping the mods'll slap some folks around and get it back to the way it was when I first joined: helpful and friendly.

Less eager and less enjoyable. Many forums I do not participate in because of the negativity that is constant. Many forums with members who look for a misguided idea by posters so the beatings can begin. Been there and done that. Tired of the brow beatings. Talk about emotionally drained after a statement is misconstrued. Instead of a response of 'your incorrect on this because', the poster get a 16 page dissertation on why he is a dope and really should consider basket weaving as a career. Constant negativity breeds negativity.

There are attempts to bring threads back to topic and a lot usually get side tracked and more so with negativity. This forum is for helping, contributing good content and friendship. It is not a anger therapy management group for members having a bad day or bad game experience.

But there is also a section on both sides who continue to boil the whole thing down to the 'Fanboy' vs 'Troll' argument and while no-one wants that, there is a huge shortfall in how this whole issue has been handled by the Moderators.

I do not understand why there sides being taken. This is not a game of team against team. A "TROLL" to me is a poster that runs down the list of threads and posts negatively on every one of them, sits back and waits for responses that he/she can expound on with more negativity and flaming. This is were the threads get side tracked and becomes utterly useless. This is were members, new and old, start to find this forum emotionally draining, less friendly and not a place he wants to visit. We want supporters of simulations, either sub or otherwise, to visit and stay at Subsim. Not because Subsim gets a dollar for every new member, because everyone has something to contribute that is positive and I look forward to reading it. I do not look forward to reading post after post of negativity and specifically from the same forum member. Again, this is not elementry school and little Timmy is having issues so it is ok for him to act out against others...not to worry, the counselors(moderators) will correct him. When the moderator does correct(repeatedly), the moderator is some sort of fruitcake. Furthermore, when I personally see members respond to the trollers such as "we know we have heard this from you 1000 times", "that inflammatory comment does not help my inquiry", etc. this troller is now bothering members and becoming a nuisance to this forum member. Just like life, if a neighbor is doing something in your community that is bothersome to other community members. The members talk to this individual. If there is no change and something legally can be done, the community as a whole will contact the authorities. This individual in the community creating the problem may not agree with the local laws and complain about the authorities but eventually he will have to comply because the rule states he must or consequences are to follow. Here at Subsim, we are a community, we have rules and trolling(bothering other members) will get a response from moderators(I wish I had a shiny badge). This forum is not different. You would not put up with you neighbor throwing his trash in your yard. Is there a reason we need to put up with a members trash being thrown in this communities yard?

there is a huge shortfall in how this whole issue has been handled by the Moderators.

Well, sir, any suggestion on overcoming the 'shortfall'? How would you handle it?

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Less eager and less enjoyable. Many forums I do not participate in because of the negativity that is constant. Many forums with members who look for a misguided idea by posters so the beatings can begin. Been there and done that. Tired of the brow beatings. Talk about emotionally drained after a statement is misconstrued. Instead of a response of 'your incorrect on this because', the poster get a 16 page dissertation on why he is a dope and really should consider basket weaving as a career. Constant negativity breeds negativity.

There are attempts to bring threads back to topic and a lot usually get side tracked and more so with negativity. This forum is for helping, contributing good content and friendship. It is not a anger therapy management group for members having a bad day or bad game experience.

Agreed. No-one wants to come in here and see the negativity day after day after day, but I think you have to take the good with the bad, to a reasonable extent. That doesn't mean we should accept the "OMG Ubisoft made my crew look gay, this sucks balls!!!!" type of threads, but certainly there have to be allowances made for constructive criticism of perceived flaws, innacuracies bugs and what not. Not for the sake of griping, but for the sake of working together as a community, as a source of feedback and dialogue for the developers workin on patches, bugfixes and dare I say it, an SHV. I don't think there is anyone who would disagree with that. It has to be said, however that the way this game has been received by the community has been overall, less than positive. Negativity will more than likely continue for the forseeable future, and Ubisoft only have themselves to blame for that. There are more ways to support a game than just by praising it, as I'm sure you can appreciate.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I do not understand why there sides being taken. This is not a game of team against team. A "TROLL" to me is a poster that runs down the list of threads and posts negatively on every one of them, sits back and waits for responses that he/she can expound on with more negativity and flaming.

I would agree with your definition of a Troll, but what this has been reduced to is a situation where everytime someone criticises the game, he is labelled a Troll and everytime someone praises the game, he is labelled a Fanboy by certain elements of the ProSHIV and AntiSHIV crowds respectively. Thats the whole issue, not there there are differences of opinion, but the namecalling, the insults, the slurs etc. Then the problem is compounded when the Moderators appear to support the ProSHIV crowd and come down on the AntiSHIV crowd, even though both were guilty of the same insulting behaviour. JCC even joined in with the sarcasm and condescending attitude. How does that look to the community? Only positive comments allowed, and although we tell you to be polite, we can be rude if we like without consequence?

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I do not look forward to reading post after post of negativity and specifically from the same forum member. Again, this is not elementry school and little Timmy is having issues so it is ok for him to act out against others...not to worry, the counselors(moderators) will correct him. When the moderator does correct(repeatedly), the moderator is some sort of fruitcake. Furthermore, when I personally see members respond to the trollers such as "we know we have heard this from you 1000 times", "that inflammatory comment does not help my inquiry", etc. this troller is now bothering members and becoming a nuisance to this forum member. Just like life, if a neighbor is doing something in your community that is bothersome to other community members. The members talk to this individual. If there is no change and something legally can be done, the community as a whole will contact the authorities. This individual in the community creating the problem may not agree with the local laws and complain about the authorities but eventually he will have to comply because the rule states he must or consequences are to follow. Here at Subsim, we are a community, we have rules and trolling(bothering other members) will get a response from moderators(I wish I had a shiny badge). This forum is not different. You would not put up with you neighbor throwing his trash in your yard. Is there a reason we need to put up with a members trash being thrown in this communities yard?

To which I would reply, what happens when the Moderator's break the rules and themselves are the ones throwing the trash? Is there a reason we should accept that we will be consequenced for our misdeeds but they won't? Is there some reason why now I feel that I'm toeing a very fine line, when all I'm asking for is equality and fairplay? Is there a reason why trust has been broken and no-one except yourself seems to want to address that fact? Moderators are members too, with the same responsibility to be as fair and honest as the rest of us. Everything you have said above is 100% right, you won't hear me dispute any of it. This is what I am trying to say, but this needs to be applied to ALL sections of the community, Camp A, Camp B and the Moderators too.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Well, sir, any suggestion on overcoming the 'shortfall'? How would you handle it?

No different than you describe above. I've got a lot of respect for how you have put things in your post, and extend my thanks that you are willing to address this issue, and get the thoughts of others. Thats how things are intended to be, is it not? I see the biggest problem as being that this was not done, that the perception of unfairness and undue bias some of the Moderators have shown to one group compared to the other is the really great tragedy in all of this. Speaking for myself, the troublemakers in both camps need to be told quite firmly to tone it down and play nice, and if the problem persists take the appropriate action. It needs to made plain that all views are welcome, if they are posted constructively and politely and that if the rules are broken that there will be consequences, for Mod's aswell as members. Lastly, I believe an apology of sorts is neccessary to restore faith and trust in the Moderators, something which I feel has been badly shaken, especially in the light of JCC's sarcastic rant and the obvious double standard being applied. Humility goes a long way towards mending fences.

[AVGWarhawk]

Agreed. No-one wants to come in here and see the negativity day after day after day, but I think you have to take the good with the bad, to a reasonable extent

This is a large gray area...what is a reasonable extent? Some peoples reasonable extent does not go as far as others. We do the best we can and come up with the best course of action. Not always the best for sure, but a lot of decisions in our lives are always the best. So you live with it, correct it and move on.

It has to be said, however that the way this game has been received by the community has been overall, less than positive. Negativity will more than likely continue for the forseeable future, and Ubisoft only have themselves to blame for that. There are more ways to support a game than just by praising it, as I'm sure you can appreciate

I agree 100% and do appreciate this point of view. I'm one who likes to point out the good things as well as bad. More so with the good because I see more good in the game than bad. Just now, attacking a convoy, got sunk and I did not see one DC dropped . Dev's...what's up? I had some bomb damage from aircraft but not enough to warrant going home! So, yes, the game has issues and the Dev need to know about them.

Thats the whole issue, not there there are differences of opinion, but the namecalling, the insults, the slurs etc. Then the problem is compounded when the Moderators appear to support the ProSHIV crowd and come down on the AntiSHIV crowd, even though both were guilty of the same insulting behaviour. JCC even joined in with the sarcasm and condescending attitude. How does that look to the community? Only positive comments allowed, and although we tell you to be polite, we can be rude if we like without consequence?

Yes, the name calling is elementry school level. To automatically shelve a poster as a troll because one does not like the post is wrong. If the same poster contiuously repeats negative on every post then he is a bother to other members. I guess the internet culture has developed this word of troll. Demeaning, yes! I'm guessing it is supposed to be demeaning. As far as JCC, like everyone else, he has his limits. More than likely the post this occurred in was probably not the first run in with the forum member. The behind the scene PM feature brings all walks of life to your PM inbox. They are not always the kindest PM either. I agree that sarcasm is not always the best answer. But, when constantly ignored and a poster tests the waters to how far he can go is very boarish at best. It is just that, how far can we get away with things. So, when said poster continues to defy moderators after explaining in a nice tone not to do what he is doing, time to make an example. Again, this normally builds up to a point and then we call it quits.

To which I would reply, what happens when the Moderator's break the rules and themselves are the ones throwing the trash? Is there a reason we should accept that we will be consequenced for our misdeeds but they won't? Is there some reason why now I feel that I'm toeing a very fine line, when all I'm asking for is equality and fairplay? Is there a reason why trust has been broken and no-one except yourself seems to want to address that fact? Moderators are members too, with the same responsibility to be as fair and honest as the rest of us. Everything you have said above is 100% right, you won't hear me dispute any of it. This is what I am trying to say, but this needs to be applied to ALL sections of the community, Camp A, Camp B and the Moderators too.

Neal steps in if the moderators get cranky. Then again, why would anyone want to be a moderator, free of charge, usually in the gunsights of forum members who are looking for a misstep? Got me! Neal asked me if I was interested because he like my posts and it was all civil, respectful of every poster on the forum. I'll admit I'm the most sarcastic b*stard out there and often bite my lip. As far as feeling you are toeing the line on any post or thread, then in the back of your mind something you have written is not good. When I post, if even the slightest idea of what I have written is off base, offensive or derogatory needs to be reexamined and written over. If nothing you have written is off base, offensive or derogatory then the feeling of toeing the line is not present.

So I could write, 'Karl, you are an egg head and do not know what on this mud ball we call Earth you are talking about'.

I stop and think, Karl is gonna get a rise out of this one. Let the keyboard smashing begin!!!

I'm baiting you, yes? Members like to bait and hope the fish takes it so the beatings can begin.

Now, if I just write, 'Karl, I think what you are seeing is incorrect and this is why.....' does not inflame you at all. There is not bait other than bait to get a intelligent discussion to start and some clarity on the subject.

No different than you describe above. I've got a lot of respect for how you have put things in your post, and extend my thanks that you are willing to address this issue, and get the thoughts of others. Thats how things are intended to be, is it not? I see the biggest problem as being that this was not done, that the perception of unfairness and undue bias some of the Moderators have shown to one group compared to the other is the really great tragedy in all of this. Speaking for myself, the troublemakers in both camps need to be told quite firmly to tone it down and play nice, and if the problem persists take the appropriate action. It needs to made plain that all views are welcome, if they are posted constructively and politely and that if the rules are broken that there will be consequences, for Mod's aswell as members. Lastly, I believe an apology of sorts is neccessary to restore faith and trust in the Moderators, something which I feel has been badly shaken, especially in the light of JCC's sarcastic rant and the obvious double standard being applied. Humility goes a long way towards mending fences.

Yes, there seems to be some unbiased teams. The team that really likes the game just happens to have the moderators on it....I'm on the team as well, but heck, I'm moderator for SH3 forums . I have no authority on the SH4 forum at all. I'm just a common Joe but have Moderator under my sig of some very dark and mysterious dude in a cap . Thus far, I see that it looks like you are badly shaken with JCC saracastic rant. I have not seen to much from anyone else....then again, I really do not look for it. The restoration of faith needs to come from both sides. In good faith members are allowed to join this private forum and follow the rules, when the good faith is broken then moderators step in. Same with moderators, if the good faith afforded by Neal that we will do our very best to keep it civil is broken, Neal steps in.

So I need to ask this question concerning this thread and what you have going on inside to spurn this thread....what is it you are ultimately looking for? If it is to keep both members and moderators on the same playing field, this will be kind of tough. Someone has to referee. If it is for moderators to keep a unbiased tone. No problem, 9 out 10 responses of mine are unbiased.(I just opened a can of worms for someone to find #10 post that is not unbiased ).

So, ultimately, what is it that you want done or looking to accomplish with this thread?

[AJ!]

Well there is going to be a huge range of new people here now SH4 is out and many of them were quite dissapointed with SH4.... The excitment in the build up to SH4 was better then the actual game in my opinion and i feel the people who do complain have every right too. It would be nice if we could keep it all to one thread but that aint gona happen

[silent one]

"To use an old adage, I may be stupid but I am not drunk!"

Sir, Id rather be drunk than stupid, as I sir will sober up.

[MikeJW]

I admit the game has problems but I'm not seeing anything after the 1.2 patch that warrants the downright vehemence and hatred this sim has. It's not surprising I guess since alot of people decided to dislike it because it's not the Atlantic again. I have no problem with reasoned and articulate complaints about the game but heres the rub:a lot of us like this game, a lot of us are having fun. When, as a fan of the game, your constantly bombarded with threads about how this game sucks or is a rip off, it gets old. It gets really old when you read said threads and the poster just doesnt know the difference between a US sub and a U-Boat, or suspects a bug because the Pacific is different from the Atlantic. Yeah, a good percentage of problems are perceived as problems by people ignorant of the facts. Again, there are bugs, I know, I've experienced them. I'm not saying the OP is in said camp. But what really gets me, what has made me stop visiting this forum everyday, is that it is getting downright impossible to read a thread where some hater doesnt butt in with a rant or a tirade about how this game sucks, is a beta, blah, blah. It doesnt matter what the thread is, what it's about or anything. There will be at least one person who is bound and determined to bring us fans down to their level of misery and you know what, I'm sick of it. If someone hates this game so much as some of the complainers do (not directing this necessarily at the OP) why are you constantly on this board striving to kill the fun of everyone else. If I dislike the game I may voice my reasons once or twice on the official forums, more if asked my opinion, but I see no reason to constantly harass those who enjoy the game.

[AVGWarhawk]

what has made me stop visiting this forum everyday,

Well, MikeJW, this is the ultimate goal of moderators, keep you coming BACK to Subsim and contributing something of substance. From what I surmise, the OP is looking for a level playing field between moderators and members. Keeping it civil and a enjoyable place. Sometimes, even moderators get to hearing enough and might handle a situation incorrectly. Moderators can only do the best we can.

is that it is getting downright impossible to read a thread where some hater doesnt butt in with a rant or a tirade about how this game sucks, is a beta, blah, blah. It doesnt matter what the thread is, what it's about or anything.

This is the gray area that I posted a few back on this thread. When is enough, enough? It depends on the content of the post. Is the poster now just bothering people? How many times have the moderators politely PM'd the member asking to lighten up? How many times has the member chosen to ignore the simple PM request? This builds up to the point sometimes, putting the member in the brig or ban can get ugly or what looks to be ugly to other members. Like anyone else, we like constructive criticism, constant negativity running through each post gets to be a bother to everyone. Even to the point were other member start piping up. When other members start piping up about it, then it is time to act.

but I see no reason to constantly harass those who enjoy the game.

Nor do I and majority on this forum. People throw around the label of Fanboy or Troll. I believe this to be part of the the OP quandry. Why the labels and why if the person does not agree with the Fanboy is he labelled a troll? Specificallly, why a moderator posts something sarcastic in response to the member who is now bothering others on the forum? Sometimes the moderator has just had enough, moderators do not shoot first and ask questions later...that happens in poorly written Steven Segal movies . There is a series of events that lead up to it. Not much more to tell other than, moderators are human too and can get hot under the collar

Moderators ultimate goal is to keep the forums friendly and place people want to come to everyday(like I did before I was a moderator). We chat everyday with people all around the globe here at Subsim. The civility here is awsome. General concensous feels much the same.....members come everyday to read and contribute because members talk and work together enjoying this game as well as other games.

I'm not sure this worrying about people's feelings and stuff is that important. We didn't all get an invitation to a birthday party or picnic or something. I personally am here for a specific reason. To find out when my game will be fixed.

I can take a guess as to why such strong emotional responses are evident, and that is because this game is "so close".

From that, I mean graphically, it has really captured our interest, yet to varying degrees (depending on who you talk to) it is difficult to enjoy.

Some people are fine with it. Some people think it could use some help. Some people won't launch it until 1.3.

I guess all I'm trying to say is I've seen this before, this torrent of emotion on forums, and equal amount of tip toeing on sensitivities and blasting people with sarcasm.

My advice is simply, don't get involved, seriously, it's not going to fix your game. I've posted a few things here so far. Confirming this bug, noting that problem, etc. Oh and congratulating that guy who's making the DAS BOOT videos because that is some seriously funny stuff.

Just check back every once in a while for a new word on 1.3, post a bug report or two if you are still playin, and don't feed the llamas.

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

There's a lot of stuff I could post here, but I'd just be repeating myself and I really don't want to, partly because it's time to let this lie and partly because I just don't want to have to type all that gibberrish out again! I'll finish things off by answering AVGWarhawk's question, What do I hope to accomplish with this thread? Well, just to get my point across and I think I've done that as best I can. There are things that I am not prepared to accept, nor should I have to and the way this 'Fanboy vs Troll' argument (which is a terrible thing to boil it down to) was handled by some of the people in authority with extreme bias and in one case, condescension and rudeness, is one of them. When that happens we all lose.

Originally Posted by sakko

I'm not sure this worrying about people's feelings and stuff is that important. We didn't all get an invitation to a birthday party or picnic or something. I personally am here for a specific reason. To find out when my game will be fixed.

If I were to call you an ******* and tell you to bugger off and fix your own damn game, would it change your mind?!! Not that I would, but you get the point. Certainly no-one is expecting to be babysat, but no-one is going to put up with a rude smartalec either, nor should we have to.

On a serious note, Ubisoft are the ones who'll be fixing the game, not Subsim.com. Although we certainly have a place devoted to Silent hunter IV: Wolves of the Pacific, we're a sub and naval community first and foremost, so most of us are here to swap stories, ideas and general chit chat about our hobby. You might be better off posting on their forums if you are just interested in patch updates and the like. You'll definitely hear of any new patches being announced on these forums, but any questions as to the when and the what would be better off here http://forums.ubi.com/eve/ubb.x?a=cfrm&f=543104453