A new war has broken out: Russia (again) merged

[AntEater]

Goodwinov's Law??
:rotfl:

Seriously, can't we solve the finnish Historikerstreit in another thread?

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

Isn't there some variant to the "Godwin law" that would include using the word "communist" to try to end an argument ?

He accused me being a Nazi/Facist .

[AntEater]

Thats the consequence of goodwin's law
for every nazi there is, there must be a communist
Ying and Yang
:rotfl:

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by AntEater

Thats the consequence of goodwin's law
for every nazi there is, there must be a communist
Ying and Yang
:rotfl:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: I saw that coming.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AntEater

Thats the consequence of goodwin's law
for every nazi there is, there must be a communist
Ying and Yang
:rotfl:

That perspective equals eternal doom for both of them.

Strange that the Russians behave so tame now. They refuse to even mantion the territorial integrity of Georgia of course, else they adapt to the EU peace plan and use Sarko as a messenger for it. They could easily afford to dictate conditions, what I would have expected them to do. But it seems they are in so total dominance of the situation and momentum that they will get what they want anyway and can afford to relieve pressure on the (uneffective) diplomatic front as well. Why behaving like a bully anymore if things come your way with you just waiting, sitting and smiling...

Sarko in first line again, why am I not surprised. but does he really take himself serious and think the Russians do not use him as a running Lackey, smiling about him behind his back? He had nothing to offer when coming, not in threats, not in presents. I think he is just at hand, and so they use him. Of course the cameras are on him. And of course that makes him grinning wide from one ear to the other. Chimp! Wave a mike like a banana and he goes ugah-ugah!

[AntEater]

Georgia/Russia: Use of Rocket Systems Can Harm Civilians
12 Aug 2008 20:24:08 GMT
Source: Human Rights Watch

Thanks a lot, Captain Obvious...
:rotfl:

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by AntEater

Thanks a lot, Captain Obvious...
:rotfl:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

That's like the warning on KP Peanuts "Caution: May contain nuts."

[Skybird]

This sums it up nicely. just the part recommending to bind former southern Soviet provinces closer to the West finds my opposition, naturally.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...571680,00.html

Russia's strongman Vladimir Putin has achieved his goal in Georgia -- the country has been destabilized. And the West will have to look on powerless when its ally, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, is eventually driven from office.

The march on Tbilisi has been called off, if such plans ever existed. Russian President Dimitry Medvedev has announced the end of military operations in the Caucasus for the time being. According to sources in Moscow, some in the Russian military found it very painful to have to halt the advance just 90 kilometers from the office of Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili. The hardliners would have loved nothing more than to do a bit of clearing up in the headquarters of this Georgian hothead.


But hasn't Russia already achieved everything it had set out to achieve? Moscow will now argue that it has fulfilled its "peacekeeping mission" as Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin puts it, and that it has stuck to international agreements regarding the Caucasus by protecting one side and restraining the other. Now only one task remains -- Saakashvili needs to go, say the Russians.

And that poses the next quandary for the West. Russia will now stress its readiness to enter negotiations, but only on one condition -- that Saakashvili quits. The Russians will demand that the West (and especially the Americans) let their their darling go.

Russia had already indicated its position on Monday when Putin drew parallels between Saakashvili and Saddam Hussein. One could understand that the Americans had hanged the criminal Saddam, said Putin. But he added that it was a scandal that the US had a totally different stance in the case of Saakashvilli and had even provided eight aircraft to transport the Georgian soldiers stationed in Iraq to join the fighting in Georgia.

So Moscow is calling for Saakashvili's head as a precondition for resolving the conflict -- and the West dearly wants a resolution. But the West accedes to Moscow's demand, it will publicly embarrass itself. On the other hand such an outcome would be logical. As columnist Bruce Anderson wrote in Britain's Independent newspaper: "In diplomacy, strategy and geopolitics, our political leaders have been guilty of multiple failures over many years." All the talk about a possible Georgian membership of NATO only encouraged Tbilisi to embark on its military adventure. Saakashvili already felt like a full NATO partner and thought he could provoke Russia without punishment. And the Russians thought it was time to teach him a lesson.

No one in NATO is likely to have even considered hurling themselves into the breach for tiny Georgia. The Americans need Russia to help them keep Iran in line. With its show of military might Moscow has reminded the West where part of its oil and gas come from. And it has shown the countries in the gray zone between East and West -- Georgia, Ukraine and the former Soviet Central Asian states -- that it makes no sense to seek protection from a West that only gives empty promises. It's true, security guarantees and pledges of solidarity aren't worth much if they run counter to the West's own strategic interests. The Poles know that all too well -- they hoped in vain for help from their friends in 1939, the British and the French, when Hitler and Stalin invaded their country.

But amid all the tragedy, Saakashvili's behavior does have a beneficial element. The Caucasus conflict may now trigger a deeper debate in the West about how to deal with the states of the former Soviet Union. It would probably have been better if Europe had been quicker to bind Georgia and the Ukraine to the European Union. But Brussels thought that was "premature" while both countries were busy talking about NATO membership.

The Russians are on the home stretch. Georgia is destabilized and Tbilisi may well soon have a pro-Russian government. The Germans won't be playing much of a role in the diplomatic wrangling over the next few weeks even if Chancellor Angela Merkel's summit meeting with Medvedev in Sochi on Friday does focus solely on the Georgian question. German foreign ministry state secretary Gernot Erler defended the meeting by saying Medvedev was the man to talk to on foreign policy affairs. "Medvedev takes the decisions," said Erler, even though he knows that is not the case. Merkel may be travelling to Sochi but the man who pulls the strings -- Prime Minister Vladimir Putin -- will be sitting 1,800 kilometers north of there, in Moscow.

That is evident not only in Putin's crisis management regarding Georgia but in all his moves to intervene in foreign policy since Medvedev took power. At the end of May, it was Putin who made the important trip to France, the current holder of the rotating EU presidency, not Medvedev, as previously announced. It was Putin who talked to US President George W. Bush and French President Nicolas Sarkozy in Beijing.

Many in Moscow refer to Medvedev as "mini-Putin" -- and are hanging their portrait of Putin back up next to that if Medvedev in their government offices.

Mini-Me, anyone? "Eeeeeek!"

[Deadlef]

I didn't see this anywhere (did a search)

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/eu...lly/index.html

TBILISI, Georgia (CNN) -- The presidents of Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia and Poland appeared Tuesday night on stage at a rally with Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, whose country is engaged in a conflict with Russia. (emphasis mine)

The rally was held before a large crowd in the capital. Earlier in the day, tens of thousands of Georgians, some with tears in their eyes, had gathered for a rally in front of the parliament building in Georgia's capital, Tbilisi.

Waving above the crowd during the earlier rally were dozens of flags: red-and-white Georgian ones; a few red, blue and-orange striped banners of Armenia; and at least two American flags. Georgia has been a strong U.S. ally.

Banners reading "Stop Russia!" were seen in the crowd as well as others showing a picture of a tank with a red X through it that said, "Free us from Russian war."

Another said, "Soldiers! The whole Georgia is with you!" One person held a poster of the Russian flag with a Nazi swastika imposed on it.

"This is the nation of Georgia and, you, all Europeans see that we don't surrender. ... If you want to learn something about freedom, come to Georgia. Long live Georgia," one speaker said.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Tuesday he ordered an end to military operations against Georgia, but the former Soviet republic reported more Russian attacks after Medvedev's statement.



The announcement came minutes before French President Nicolas Sarkozy was to land in Moscow, Russia, to meet with Medvedev to negotiate terms for a possible cease-fire.



The rallies in Tbilisi followed five days of fighting that began in the Georgian breakaway region of South Ossetia and spread into Georgia. Russian tanks began rolling into the area soon after hostilities began.
Saakashvili has accused Russia of provoking the war to justify a full-scale invasion of the former Soviet state. The Russians said Saakashvili attacked first in an attempt to gain control of South Ossetia.

[AntEater]

Nice allies they have:

- Yushtshenko: Should tread more carefully, as his majority is fragile but basically he's still the best of the bunch. Had to row back tremendously in his premature statement regarding the black sea fleet. Still his policy of ukrainian nationalism in a country where about 50% of the population are not ukrainian is, midly put, not really up to modern standards in minority policy.

- the baltic heads of state: who treat their russian minorities like second class citizens and think that Estonians and Latvians fighting for the Waffen-SS in WW2 did the right thing and are heroes. The criticism of treatment of Russians does not come from Putin or me but from the european court of justice, hardly a russian propaganda machine. I know Happy Times will disagree and say russians deserve it (basically because they're russian).
Funny is all of them never experienced soviet suffering firsthand, as they are all from the US.

- Kaczynski: this guy is simply a moron and all of Germany no matter wether left or right agrees on that, as does well as every Pole I know and every Pole who is not a bigot, a racist or a religious fanatic because this guy is all in one Person. His favorite subjects are actually germans and homosexuals, the greatest threats to Poland. Russia comes only third.
Even without his racism, his political standpoints make Rush Limbaugh look like a left-wing liberal.

That is a collection of the above mentioned fringe nationalists.
Quote Kaczinsky today: "Our eastern neighbours have shown their true face, one which we have known for hundreds of years".
That basically means, he is not anti-russian because Putin is authoritarian, but because Russians are simply an eternal enemy.
Nice to have such modern views in the 21st century and in the EU
Germans have to tolerate the flood of racist diatribes from this guy for three years now and even our politician's patience wore thin sometimes.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Oberon

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

That's like the warning on KP Peanuts "Caution: May contain nuts."

Not as stupid as you think, peanuts are legumes (like Peas) not nuts.

[Skybird]

Saw a brief summary/report of that rally on TV, heared Shaakashvilli speaking. Wallowing emotions, nationalistic pathos, lies and denial of reality, and no sign of intelligent life anywhere.

First provoking a messing up of things, and then crying crocodile's tears about themselves. Losers.

*********

Okay, the show all in all seems to be over. I see no reason why to carry on this thread. Expect to see me making myself rare in here.

[AntEater]

Ok, I know enough georgians:
They're hot-blooded and temperamental, but not stupid.
Basicall caucasian mentality is not dissimilar to that of Latinos.
The will not suddenly start to like the russians, but they will ask questions.

[Happy Times]

- Yushtshenko: Should tread more carefully, as his majority is fragile but basically he's still the best of the bunch. Had to row back tremendously in his premature statement regarding the black sea fleet. Still his policy of ukrainian nationalism in a country where about 50% of the population are not ukrainian is, midly put, not really up to modern standards in minority policy.

Remember when someone tried to poison him, wonder who was behind that.
77.8% Ukrainian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

- the baltic heads of state: who treat their russian minorities like second class citizens and think that Estonians and Latvians fighting for the Waffen-SS in WW2 did the right thing and are heroes. The criticism of treatment of Russians does not come from Putin or me but from the european court of justice, hardly a russian propaganda machine. I know Happy Times will disagree and say russians deserve it (basically because they're russian).
Funny is all of them never experienced soviet suffering firsthand, as they are all from the US.

You meen those that arent citizens of Baltic states but have Russian passport and call for a Russian re-occupation. The ones that have embraced their new countries do fine.They wouldnt be there without the occupation of the countries and the following genocide and russification. Dont the Balts have a right to their own nation states that has their own language as the official one. Maybe you should give the Turkish an official status in Germany.
The Baltic Waffen-SS formations were moslty drafted and didint commit atrocities, this was recognized in the Nurnberg trials.

- Kaczynski: this guy is simply a moron and all of Germany no matter wether left or right agrees on that, as does well as every Pole I know and every Pole who is not a bigot, a racist or a religious fanatic because this guy is all in one Person. His favorite subjects are actually germans and homosexuals, the greatest threats to Poland. Russia comes only third.
Even without his racism, his political standpoints make Rush Limbaugh look like a left-wing liberal.

That is a collection of the above mentioned fringe nationalists.
Quote Kaczinsky today: "Our eastern neighbours have shown their true face, one which we have known for hundreds of years".
That basically means, he is not anti-russian because Putin is authoritarian, but because Russians are simply an eternal enemy.
Nice to have such modern views in the 21st century and in the EU
Germans have to tolerate the flood of racist diatribes from this guy for three years now and even our politician's patience wore thin sometimes.

On this i agree, he is a weirdo but those wiews are all comparable to something that comes out of Putins mouth aswell.

Originally Posted by Steel_Tomb

Skybird, you are completely ignoring the fact that the Russians have been teasing the Georgians into a fight for months? That the Russia is a lying scheming power who has been planning this for months. They equip rebels with weapons who attack Georgia, and georgia has the right to defend itself. No they couldn't win the war and perhaps it was stupid, but it the RIGHT thing to do. What position is a nation in IF IT CAN NOT DEFEND ITSELF against blatent aggression. Yes there were civilian casulties and that is VERY regretable, but remember they are using old soviet weaponary and probably the old soviet style of attacking enmass carelessly... they dont have the precision munitions of modern warfare. Its ridiculous. I usually support your arguments without question as you find the middle ground most of us miss, however I can not agree with you here. Your saying, in a larger picture, that perhaps Germany should put up with Russian attacks for weeks and weeks without defending its territory? In case it leads to a larger conflict? Regardless of the size of a nation, it is their RIGHT to respond to any kind of aggression like that, for good or for worse. I don't know the full picture of Georgia's past with SO and ABK but they were provoked into this conflict and paid the price. Its ok for you to say "they shouldn't have attacked" but when its YOUR citizens being shelled and shot at YOU have the responsibility to protect those who put you into office by any means necessary. At the end of the day, there are some nations, and some leaders who WANT conflict. And no matter what you do they WILL get it, weather they storm across your boarders in an all out assault or lie political traps for you to fall into. If you don't stand up to the playground bully, they get bolder and bolder until one day they suddenly realise "I can do what I want, no one else has tried to stop me". When will it end? Will it end with Russia's ego satisfied? Perhaps. Or will it end with the Russian occupation of Ukraine, removing that "thorn in their side" who wants to me more like western nations instead of that backwards oppressive regime that currently inhabits the Kremlin. I'm surprised by some peoples complete contempt for the Georgians, they may have done things wrong in the past... but so have we. Britain and Germany are responsible for some unspeakable crimes in history, but we, for the most of the time get the respect that is deserved. It may seem a trivial issue and a no brainer to stay out of the conflict for some people/nations... but for those who have lost loved ones and had their lives completely destroyed, I can assure you this is no trivial matter!

I'm going to stop now, rant over.

Agreed , @skybird seems to have no desire to even consider the other side of the conflict , for some reason Russia's actions have all been pure and aboveboard while Georgia is nefarious and evil no matter what

@Skybird , just for future reference , calling people "Pathetic" etc ,for not agreeing 100% with you, is not a good way to have people take you seriously or to consider you arguments!