[REL] Real Fleet Boat

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Galanti

Beery, have you looked into the effectiveness of the 40mm against syrface targets? There have been reports from the other players that they act like 5" chain guns against larger vessels.

This is my biggest concern right now, but I haven't been able to test it yet and even if I do test it I have yet to see a way to modify the AA machinegun effectiveness. :hmm:

I think I'll do some tests with all types of machineguns against destroyers.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by DiveMonkey

Sorry Beery! didn't mean to hijack your thread.

No problem, carry on hijacking. It'll eventually get back on topic and the discussion is interesting anyway.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Beery

I think I'll do some tests with all types of machineguns against destroyers.

I tested twin 20mm guns against destroyers and escorts: the most they do is cause fires above deck on escorts, and it's difficult to get them to do that.

I tested the 40mm gun against an escort:

40mm HE shells do significant damage above decks but I shot my entire stock of HE ammo into the hull to no visible effect.

40mm AP shells will sink an escort. I shot all my HE ammo into the hull then followed it up with AP - it needed about 160 rounds to sink the escort.

Finally I shot only 40mm HE into an escort's hull - it sank after I put 200 AP shells into it.

It seems from this that it's the AP that's doing all the damage (there was only 40 AP rounds difference between shooting the hull with HE + AP and shooting it with AP only. Since it takes all the HE ammo plus 160 rounds of AP I reckon if we reduce the damage done by AP to about 1/3rd to 1/2 of what it is now that might solve the problem.

[Krupp]

About fires on ships, or lack of it. It looks like doing battle-surface attacks (finishing crippled ones) doesen't seem to put up fires aboard ships the way one would imagine. There is a lot of flammable materials (in superstructures and cargo holds, depending gargo of course) that should start burning when hit by a HE ammo.

Also the smoke could be a lot thicker and darker( and maybe more of it too perhaps?).

There's some modders who have done good job with the smokes so far, maybe one of them could give it a thought and improve the visual effects? And for the fires, a damage (zones) specialist could add some possible fires?

Just a thought...

[Beery]

I dislike fires in sims. I reckon a lot of the pyrotechnics that are included in simulations have more to do with Hollywood than with reality. In terms of ships, yeah there's a lot of flammable stuff, but there are also a lot of safety features to prevent fires breaking out. Plus, there's the issue that HE is not incendiary ammo - it might start a fire if it hits the right spot, but usually it would just explode.

A friend of mine once defended the DM in the simulation Red Baron 2, saying that he agreed with the devs' decision to make gas tanks set alight after being hit by a few rounds of regular (non-incendiary) ammo in the flight sim Red Baron 2. So I bet him that he couldn't set a gasoline container alight with regular machinegun ammunition. He took the bet. He tried shooting regular ammo into it - no effect whatsoever (except that the gas poured through the holes), even after a number of tries. He tried tracer rounds - no effect. He tried incendiary ammo - no effect, although after a couple of tries he did finally get one to blow up.

Stuff only tends to set alight if it's flammable, and only then if there's an ignition source and only then if conditions are perfect.

I do agree that when fires do break out on ships they ought to be more smoky, but other fires - especially those on aircraft - shouldn't be. We have aircraft that become virtual fireballs if a bullet comes within 50 yards of them.

[Camaero]

If a ship is really burning, will it help it to sink or is all the smoke just visual?

Also, Beery, is there anything you can do to adjust the damage zones on ships? I would like to be able to surface and aim to knock out the rudder on ships with the deck gun like some of our real subs did. Some torp hits directly in the tail don't even stop these beasts sometimes. Is this hard coded or can it be fixed?

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Camaero

If a ship is really burning, will it help it to sink or is all the smoke just visual?

Also, Beery, is there anything you can do to adjust the damage zones on ships? I would like to be able to surface and aim to knock out the rudder on ships with the deck gun like some of our real subs did. Some torp hits directly in the tail don't even stop these beasts sometimes. Is this hard coded or can it be fixed?

Damage zones are very moddable (if that's even a word). However, the zones.cfg file is a bit tricky as altering the data in there can have unintended consequences. I try to stay away from that file if I can avoid it.

On the burning ship issue, I don't know if it causes damage. I think I read somewhere that it does, but somehow I doubt it because I've never seen a burning ship sink from the effect of fire.

[tedhealy]

2nd patrol with the latest RFB, same results 1 ship sunk for 8000t. Did I mention I really like the reduced contacts? It makes every encounter into an edge of your seat affair because you never know if this will be your only contact during the patrol.

Beery have you tried out betterscopes 1.1? It makes the observation scope a little larger to simulate a wider field of view. It gives you a reason to use the obs scope. I now actually use it to check the area before surfacing rather than just always using the attack scope.

[shad43]

I like the new version Beery, Nice work

[akdavis]

Originally Posted by Beery

The problem is that the AI gunners are nearly 100% accurate even at long range. When a 40mm gun is hitting its target with every single bullet any aircraft that comes under fire doesn't last long even if we massively reduce the bullet effectiveness. Whereas human gunners might have hit with one in every few hundred bullets the game's AI hits with every single bullet. The only effective way to tone down the AI's killing ability (without reducing the human player's ability to also use guns) is to restrict AI gunnery range to what was considered 'effective range' for submarine AA guns.

Before the restriction in AI gunnery range all the player had to do was set the AA to fire at aircraft and he could just watch the AI gunners take them down. If the player took over a gun he was a liability because he had no chance to be as effective as the AI. In other words there was no point in the player ever manning AA guns. With the reduction in AI range the AA guns are balanced so that the player is at least as effective as the AI. This has the effect of bringing the player back into this part of the game.

I understand that entirely. Just seems like there should be some advantage for the 40mm over 20mm. Actually, I'd really love it if the AI used the 40mm as a "deck gun" instead of AA, but I don't think that can happen considering the apparent state of the code regarding the use of two deck guns on the same sub.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by tedhealy

Beery have you tried out betterscopes 1.1? It makes the observation scope a little larger to simulate a wider field of view. It gives you a reason to use the obs scope. I now actually use it to check the area before surfacing rather than just always using the attack scope.

I will add in a scope mod at some point. Betterscopes sounds good, I'll check into it. Right now I'm focusing on gunnery issues: the 40mm AA gun can take down DEs and I reckon that shouldn't be the case.

[fire-fox]

dose this still include the stock 1.2 cruch deapth's and underwater ranges as thay are way off what thay should be (see CCIP's mods of the same names)

[Beery]

I've fixed the 40mm "Escort-killer" gun. It was just a matter of toning the AP min and max effects down a bit in the shells.zon file. Killing escorts with anti-aircraft guns is no longer possible. The fix will be in the next RFB version.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by fire-fox

dose this still include the stock 1.2 cruch deapth's and underwater ranges as thay are way off what thay should be (see CCIP's mods of the same names)

CCIP's extended battery life mod is included, but SH4 version 1.2 increased crush depths to a more reasonable level so RFB has stock crush depths right now.

[fire-fox]

ok thanks