A stupid hunch on that craptastic AI.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Another dumb thoguht.


Lets say you make an HK group in the editor, and to save time, you select "GENERIC Destoryer Escort". I once heard that "generic" entries use the AI_hydrophones and AI_sonar in the AI_sensor.dat instead of all the specifically named hydrophone or sonar sets that have much better stastics, i never put much thought into that, but now i have to wonder if thats true.

makes sense ---as this offers an opportunity to have radically different destroyer sensors for different aspects of the gameplay it has to be used to the fullest extent--

yes if you use the mission editor to add ships it shows that generic vessels are avialable for each country (if you do not see them available for a specific country then copying the cfgs from the roster folder into the countrys roster folder will give you the choices there aswell__i think it's the cfgs you need to copy might be the entire vessel folder one or t'other any way or both lol)

it's better than even money the generic ships use the generic sensors.(dead cert in my book)...so it's an ideal way to get different HK behaviour from the normal convoy escorts---bags of room for realism experiments there--


it's a shame you can't have different lost contact times for either one--that's the only drawback-- for my money you want a short sharp shock from the convoy escorts--rinse and repeat-- till convoy is safe-- and something a lot more prolonged and deadly from the HK's--

[Ducimus]

well i ramped up the generic sensors. Still testing.

Not promising so far, i always tend to have better luck by lowering the noise factor.

[Wulfmann]

I just posted the below in a new thread before I saw this one. easier to just copy and paste. It is in line with but also in addition to this subject.

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject:
I noticed something very wrong with AI depth charge drops

I was testing my new RND and decided to see if my theory that the fall of the DCes is directed at player’s U-Boat no matter what the angle of approach from the attacking escort.
I found a perfect example so allowed myself to not take evasive action to see if I was correct.
The DE was off my port bow as I made 3knots at 220 meters. It crossed my bow at zero and was at a constant distance. It then was reported closing at 17, closing at 30, closing at 77 and closing at 100 degrees at which I heard the sounds of DC splashes. It then was moving away at 200. Now if you can picture a drop over me 220 meters nearly 700 feet above me and I am moving at 3 knots.
At 3 meters per second it should take 70 seconds for the DC to reach me. If it is dropped on my position I would have moved more than 350 meters in 70 seconds. That is four lengths of my boat. Since the drop occurred while the escort was going from 100 to 200 degrees relative to my direction that would mean he was dropping slightly behind my center. Even if the DCes fell straight down with no momentum from the moving escort I would not be where they fell. I would have had to have been completely stopped and they would have had to drop straight off the escort to hit me behind the conning tower.
Yet, they landed directly on top of me.
That can mean, assuming I am not mistaken and it would be wrong to assume that but still possible the DCes are dropped with knowledge by the game to where it knows I will be and defies the change in position almost like if it drops where you are it hits you. That can’t be right and I have tried to access this but the fact is my position and direction relative to the escorts's position and direction are correct. They are known facts (to me) that made this an easy to analyze situation
That means that every time you hear a drop it will hit you at the correct depth (on escorts of 2-3-4 rated crews at least) even if you are moving in a different direction for the path of the cans.
The only way that will not happen is if you alter course each time irregardless of what your position is relative to the drop. That makes it hard to figure as practical solutions can be worse than turning toward the should be explosion area.
Since I did that last night for 51/2 hours changing course with every drop it can work but that is not only not real, historically, but not fair for a game, not sporting mates! (The relaity is more the concern, though!)
One of the things real U-Boats did was actually stand still. More times than not they withstood all day long DC attacks and lived to tell the story.
Why can't we?
I don't want stupid AI either. But somewhere in between is there a possible solution to this?

How can we change that?
I am unfamiliar with how Depth Charges work and what it would take to modify them and even if we can modify the drop rate and explosive results can we modify the way they can be dropped with deadly precision?

Can someone speak up on what we can do and how DC are configured and what options we have for modifying them? Correcting this would be a big leap forward in hisorical reenactment!

Wulfmann

[Ducimus]

I am unfamiliar with how Depth Charges work and what it would take to modify them and even if we can modify the drop rate and explosive results can we modify the way they can be dropped with deadly precision?

Most of your depth charge woes have already been fixed. Its quite easy. D/L some of TIme travellers tools.

You can adjust drop speed. I think its at 3 M/per second (by way of comparision i think HH's are like 6 or 7 MPS)

You can adjust depth percision. Meaning if you enter a depth percision of 20, it depth charge will randomly detonate anywhere within 20 meters of its intended depth. The default on this is FIVE.

You can adjust min/max radius, this effects the kill zone of the depth charge. For example alot of ppl use like 4 and 15, default is like 4 and 40.

Then theres explosion range, this effects the distance at which you can feel the depth charge . (screen shakes and such)

[mike_espo]

Hey Ducimus, am I wrong in assuming that unless the AI "hears" something, it won't ping?

If so, that is unrealistic. Just finished a book: U-boat Killer by Capt Donald Macintire, He drove a H class DD in WW2 Killed 5 U-boats.

He goes on to say that they always used ASDIC, not Hydrophones for detecting U-boats.

Is it asking too much to change the code so AI can ping on a Huff Duff or Aircraft sighting?? :hmm:

[mike_espo]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

i' not so sure...

i've set up my ai_sensors file so that at silent running, i'm impossible to hear unless the escort is w/in a couple of hundred yards. nevertheless, i can start getting pinged when the escort is 1400-1500m away.

How is that possible??

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by mike_espo

Hey Ducimus, am I wrong in assuming that unless the AI "hears" something, it won't ping?

If so, that is unrealistic.

I was thinking out loud with a tin foil hat trying to figure out what the AI does. Realism has nothing to do with it. Just a wild guess at the unfathomable and mysteriously dumb AI.

[caspofungin]

Originally Posted by mike_espo

Hey Ducimus, am I wrong in assuming that unless the AI "hears" something, it won't ping?

If so, that is unrealistic... they always used ASDIC, not Hydrophones for detecting U-boats.

there's real life, then there's this game.

re getting pinged at 1400+ m -- it does happen. i'm not sure if the initial detection is by hydrophones or if pinging starts at a certain level of "suspicion" -- ie the same sense that drives the escort to where you fired off your torps...

either way, it does happen. pretty cool, too. increases in volume as they get closer and closer, suddenly there's silence and you know you're under the beam of the asdic and the dc's aren't too far away...

[Wulfmann]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Most of your depth charge woes have already been fixed. Its quite easy. D/L some of TIme travellers tools.

You can adjust drop speed. I think its at 3 M/per second (by way of comparision i think HH's are like 6 or 7 MPS)

You can adjust depth percision. Meaning if you enter a depth percision of 20, it depth charge will randomly detonate anywhere within 20 meters of its intended depth. The default on this is FIVE.

You can adjust min/max radius, this effects the kill zone of the depth charge. For example alot of ppl use like 4 and 15, default is like 4 and 40.

Then theres explosion range, this effects the distance at which you can feel the depth charge . (screen shakes and such)

OK, I giess I am not as unfamiliar as I thought. I have these tools and use them but only when I can ascertain improvements.
Making it easy is worse than too hard. It is my hope some curve that mimics realistic conclusions if not actual means of reaching them can be had or at least more than now.
I will check my DCs to see what I can do starting with your siggestions.

Wulfmann

[Wulfmann]

Before I re-edit the DCes and try them can one of you "experten" inform me as to the sim and sensor files in the configuration folder.
Which refers to the player boat and which is for the AI?
Wulfmann

[Ducimus]

AI_sensors.dat - everything related to escorts

IE,
Active sonar, passive sonar, visual, radar, etc.

ON a side note, an entry of XXX_XXXXP - the P i beleive is for Passive... meaning hydrophones. An A on the end means Active, as in active sonar.
Also the active sonar will have a 90 degree arc and passive like 135 degrees.

Stare at it long enough you'll figure out who's who.

Sensors.dat - generally speaking everything related to you.
Your visual range, your RWR, your radar, etc.

[Wulfmann]

D, I look at the Hex editor opened files for ai_sensors like a calf looking at a new gate!
I have done a lot of Hex editing in flight sims so wonder why this looks so different but it does or perhaps I just need familiarization with the terminology (lacking!)
The text file in the CFG folder for sim and sensors does not actually do anything regarding this discussion?

Wulfmann

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Good thread gentlemen!

[Ducimus]

Ideally you want TimeTravllers, "SH3 Mini Tweaker". Id give you the homepage link, but i can't find it, and the D/L sticky is missing its information. Im pretty sure that somebody on the fourm knows the address though.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Ideally you want TimeTravllers, "SH3 Mini Tweaker". Id give you the homepage link, but i can't find it, and the D/L sticky is missing its information. Im pretty sure that somebody on the fourm knows the address though.

TimeTraveller's Website http://www.delraydepot.com/tt/sh3.htm#crushdepth

You can find it there.