Is this true that England has 3x the crime rate of the US?

[Konovalov]

Not to mention that to do away with CCTV would be to give away a very important source of evidence collecting ability in piecing together a crime not to mention it is a critical tool in criminal trials. Just think of 7/7 to name a recent ecample here in London or the wite youths in the US who were caught on camera bashing homeless people. I have no problem with CCTV and think it is a crucial tol in he 21st century for law enforcement agencies. And no, I don't think it breaches my human rights or privacy. I am in a public place so why do people have a problem with it?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by DangerousDaze

Stating that CCTV makes crime worse is disingenuous. Check out this report conducted by the UK home office into the impacts of CCTV on crime based on the findings of 22 separate pieces of research.

The key conclusion is:

Nick

There is your problem - the research was conducted by the very office that wants them installed. They don't want to look like idiots because their massive expensive system turned out to be a waste of time!

-S

[XabbaRus]

Ok well speaking as a Brit, trying to compare UK crime rate and US one based on that pile of crap at the start of the thread is impossible.

UK crime rate 3x that of US?

Is that overall, gun crime, fraud, granny mugging, cat burgling?

Is it per capita of population etc.

Fact is this overall crime has dropped in England and Wales, violent crime however has gone up.

Gun crime, well I'll get back to you on that one, but as it is mostly illegal guns used in gun crime in the UK I guess UK gun laws work. Your average joe in the street isn't going to pop a cap in someones ass just cos he got pissed at someone.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Ok well speaking as a Brit, trying to compare UK crime rate and US one based on that pile of crap at the start of the thread is impossible.

UK crime rate 3x that of US?

Is that overall, gun crime, fraud, granny mugging, cat burgling?

Is it per capita of population etc.

Fact is this overall crime has dropped in England and Wales, violent crime however has gone up.

Gun crime, well I'll get back to you on that one, but as it is mostly illegal guns used in gun crime in the UK I guess UK gun laws work. Your average joe in the street isn't going to pop a cap in someones ass just cos he got pissed at someone.

That pile of crap you reference is pretty typical world wide. It is accurate as well, but I can't find 3x the US yet since the best data I can come up with is 1996 for now. In the last 9 years, we have seen a drastic decline in the US over what is even pictured here. Anyway, here are the numbers as of 1996 and I'll post some later ones if I can find them (assuming I take the time).

-S

PS. One other thing I should point our - almost 50% of the population 21 and over in Washington state (48%?) has a concealed pistol license (myself included), and no, we don't pop a cap in your ass just because you say that my mother is ugly or something!

PPS. Maybe that would happen in England though with all of their bar fights! Assault by mug could turn into something much worse!

[XabbaRus]

Well that was 10 years ago.

And I'm sure you have as many barfights.

I agree the UKs reputation for hard drinking and the consequences are depressing. My solution is to send them to the salt mines in siberia.

See we have thiese things called neds and chavs.

http://www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk/gallery/gallery5.html

My idea is to make a Escape from New Yaork type thing. Take the ****tiest city in the UK. Birmingham or Milto Keynes...buils a 50 foot wall around it and dump them in there.

Or start some sort of profiling, look at their parents look at them and as soon as they breed their offspring are sterilised at birth.

Hmm called Eugenics I think but seriously if you saw them you'd want to do the same. Hmmm maybe our gun laws do need changing. These scum need sorting out.

Or get a bunch of cruise liners con the ned population to go on them, drive them out to the mid Atlantic. Put Maggie Thatcher in a T-boat and sink them...

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

In the last 9 years, we have seen a drastic decline in the US over what is even pictured here. Anyway, here are the numbers as of 1996 and I'll post some later ones if I can find them (assuming I take the time).

-S

PS. One other thing I should point our - almost 50% of the population 21 and over in Washington state (48%?) has a concealed pistol license (myself included), and no, we don't pop a cap in your ass just because you say that my mother is ugly or something!

PPS. Maybe that would happen in England though with all of their bar fights! Assault by mug could turn into something much worse!

Really interesting, SUBMAN1.
I alkways had the impression that the crime rate in the US was excessive. Well, perhaps caused by Hollywood & TV Series...
I hope you can find some up to date figures.

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Gun crime, well I'll get back to you on that one, but as it is mostly illegal guns used in gun crime in the UK I guess UK gun laws work. Your average joe in the street isn't going to pop a cap in someones ass just cos he got pissed at someone.

Another statistical problem we may run across: popping a cap in someone ass just cos someone got pissed is a crime in most nations of the world, including the UK, hence, any legal weapon used to do so automatically becomes illegal, which means the official statistic will depend on the good faith of the police chief AND the researcher to determine if former legal weapons will be included in the illegal pile or into something else, depending on the study this minor issue can make a whole lot of difference or at least distort the final result.

Now if you will allow me to have some fun, if there is anything interesting about gun control laws in the UK it's the Fox hunt law, regardless of my personal opinion about the sport which I find to be actually more of a social event than a sport since the hunter hardly has to do anything at all other than chat and enjoy the day while the dogs do all the work, the Beagles got out (I hope the the cute little things are getting help to find a good home) and shotguns came in:

So the British Lords, Knights of the Queen, are given the right to hunt with shotguns, effectively creating an organized mounted cavalry force, while the British citizens, the humble peasantry are denied the same right, what do we have here? A time-bomb to the return of Monarchy in England. :rotfl:

[DangerousDaze]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

There is your problem - the research was conducted by the very office that wants them installed.

The home office didn't conduct the 22 evaluations, they merely aggregated them for the report.

Nick

[Deathblow]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Those are very interesting figures, but is the source reliable? and when was the survey done?

[Skybird]

Any data on local spreading patterns? How compares the countryside to the metropoles? statistics are tricky. you need to know about how the raw data was created, how variables were weigthened. Else they do not tell you much, but only manipulate. That' why politicians love to give them so often.

"If I put my head into an oven, and my feet into a refrigerator, my mean temperature would be slightl above average." Giving that mean temperature as the only result would give the impression that I feel nice and well. try it yourself, and you will know why it is nonsens.

If I have one big city with 10% of population, and 70 small villages with the remaining rest of population, the expected higher crime rate in the big city would be eaten up by the expected low crime rates in the small villages.

I bet even the crime rates inside one of the metropoles vary significantly in different city sectors.

I also miss a needed discrimination between various categories of crimes. If murder is the same as theft is the same as wrong parking, the data is messed up even more.

I bet even the crime rates inside one of the metropoles vary significantly. Generally, there is no needed info on the way the examination got conducted, and how the data was created, and what sources for data were used.

If statistics would be given like this, to be published in a scientific magazine, they even wouldn'T mind to send you a negative answer. Those numbers say all and nothing.

When studying, helping the teacher in a seminar I wrote three different works for illustration purposes, short ones, using the same data, and nevertheless each work came to totally different conclusions, statistically, on the basis of the very same original data! Technically (by use of statistically procedures and criterias of classical test theory) everaything was correct. but the correct way I prefrred over different, nevertheless also correct ways, already detemrined and manipulated the outcome. That's how it is with statistics. They are not objective, but determined by arbitrary decisions and subjective priorities.

Overall, if generalizing over the whole country's area, I woul say that there is a higher mean population densityin GB than in the US. the size of the american population is so many times bigger than that of Britain. but the country's territory is FAR bigger in size than Britain, the factor is much higher. If one is generalizing without discriminating as I demended above, the impression can appear that it is like the curves seem to say, at first glance.

Now compare LA and surrounding area, with let'S say Wales. Got the difference?

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by Skybird

If statistics would be given like this, to be published in a scientific magazine, they even wouldn'T mind to send you a negative answer. Those numbers say all and nothing.

Hwang Woo Suk. It's not that difficult to trick the "scientific magazines" afterall, as long as you are "scientific enough", you're in.

But the ballet of numbers is a fantastic dance indeed, I had to watch as every number, every study, every source was corrupted and deceitfully twisted to fit an agenda, it wasn't "accidental" like Skybird experiments, a mere funny surprise, but deliberately built as a fraud from start to support a political project, not a casual seminar. Nothing involving "scientific magazines" of course, but worth of mention were the official governmental institutions and Mr. Jorge Werthein & Mr. Julio Jacobo Waiselfisz from the www.unesco.org, a branch of the UN.

Thankfully, the statistical frauds can be deconstructed with relative ease and there's no excuse for lying in a statistical study, which greatly demoralizes the author and utterly shatters every piece of credibility the statistic may have once had, just like the research of Dr. Hwang Woo Suk.

[Skybird]

It was no accidental work by me, but an intentional work, to demonstrate how easily the same raw data can be used to intentionally create the wanted - and different - statistical argument, even if these data are subject to solid statistically processing. As I said, I assisted the teacher in that seminar.

I do not want to give the imprssion that I am expert on statistiocs, though. am not and laready have forgotten most of it. But when studying psychology in Germany, you have several coursed dealing with that every semester, from the first until diploma. Don't remind me of that. I hated it.

[Abraham]

While it is true what Skybird says - certainly about the oven and the fridge - not all is relevant. We don't have to get lost in statistic, sud-statistics and restrictions on statistics.

If we compare countries we compare crime rate per X households in country A versus country B. We only need to define "crime rate". Does it include any infringment with the law, misdemeaners included? Or only serious crime?

I'm sure that the statistics that SUBMAN1 provided will have some further specifications and I would like SUBMAN1 to check them out (if that's not too much trouble for him).

[STEED]

CCTV is on the increase here in the UK our stupid Prime Minister wants them all over the place is it to catch criminals in the act. No their here to spy on you today Big Brother tomorrow The New World Order.

As for crime the criminals are laughing all the way when they are caught they get off with it or given such a stupid sentence why bother after all when they go to prison they have a nice holiday. Prison did I say sorry I meant Holiday Camp And as for tough on crime and the cause of crime that gives me a good laugh every time I hear that one.

And why has all this happen lets nip back to 1997 the General Election Tony Blair won and Labour became the new Government welcome to Political Correctness and the Nanny State and don’t forget Tony’s Spin machine and spin doctors

THANK YOU FOR SPENDING OUR MONEY TONY BLAIR ON SPIN A WHOPPING £500 MILLION THAT’S THE COST TO THE BRITISH TAX PAYER

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Abraham

While it is true what Skybird says - certainly about the oven and the fridge - not all is relevant. We don't have to get lost in statistic, sud-statistics and restrictions on statistics.

If we compare countries we compare crime rate per X households in country A versus country B. We only need to define "crime rate". Does it include any infringment with the law, misdemeaners included? Or only serious crime?

I'm sure that the statistics that SUBMAN1 provided will have some further specifications and I would like SUBMAN1 to check them out (if that's not too much trouble for him).

Let me see if I can find the original article. I think I found that on the US State dept website. If I remember correctly, they also stated that there are no reliable figures after the 1996 date, and I think that article was written in 2004 - so I am not feeling too confident that I can find anything later. If the US Gov can't do it - my chances are probably much bleaker!

-S