GRID CO-ORDS IN RADIO MESSAGES

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Beery

If the mere presence of a woman can turn hardened professionals into sappy incompetents, I think there's a deep flaw in military training.

The flaw is not in military training. It's in human nature.

And, actually, it's not a flaw. It's working as designed.

I believe that women can handle numerous roles in the military. I believe that men definitely, on the average, have physical advantages over women that are pertinent to many military assignments.

Yet overall I believe that men and women working in close quarters, especially in many combat situations, will increase the risk of failure.

I don't care how politically incorrect this sounds, especially when coming from a woman. That's the way I see it.

Originally Posted by Andrea-Jayne

Oh, and having a "male" picture for my avatar is worrying me a bit - are there any girl picture avatars available for me to use please? I have mid length dark straight hair, usually in pony tail!!

If you contribute to the forums (I think it's only $2 US) you can then send Neal the picture you want (as with mine) and then you'll have your own personal avatar.

Good hunting.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

...overall I believe that men and women working in close quarters, especially in many combat situations, will increase the risk of failure....

I would agree, if they're poorly trained. But military training (if it's done right) is supposed to train the responses of human nature out of a recruit. The idea is to turn a person into a fighting machine that doesn't give in to emotional impulses. A well trained soldier should do his job without being distracted by fear or emotion. If he doesn't, then the military has a problem.

If a person is trained to the levels of professionalism that should be demanded by a military organization, sex should be secondary to professionalism. I mean I've worked in civilian life and the professionalism with which I've done my job has never been affected by the presence of women. If you're a professional you do your job despite distractions - that's the definition of professionalism. If we become less competent when surrounded by the opposite sex, that shows either a lack of training or a basic lack of ability.

People who are bothered by such petty considerations as women on the job will be bothered by other things, and if we have a bunch of folks in the military whose competence can be affected merely by the sex of the person next to them, then in my opinion those people don't belong in a professional organization - especially one that involves life or death decisions. That's not political correctness: it's plain common sense.

The other thing is that it just doesn't make much sense to me to bar 50% of your population from a job purely based on what sexual equipment they happen to be carrying around. I mean just think of the military geniuses that may have been prevented from serving purely because of their gender. How many female Caesars or Napoleons has Western civilization ignored simply because of a surge of chemicals that happened (or rather that didn't happen) when they were still a fetus in the womb? It just doesn't make sense to me. A professional organization should be trying to get the job done. It shouldn't be coddling human weaknesses or prejudices. Rather, those weaknesses should be weeded out.

[Keelbuster]

I keep thanking higher power for creating women that game...and not only star wars & and puzzle gaming, but military gaming. Yay!

[kiwi_2005]

I like to think when disaster strikes then man calls on woman for help, just like in WW2 for instance, the american woman worked in factories building tanks/planes in the thousands in fact you could say they ran the country without them the war machine would of come to a slow grid. Here in NZ during WW2 they became farmers. They did the mans job well.

Peace time, they belong in the kitchen

[Rotluchs]

No amount of training will remove/suppress the basic human instinct to mate. Its too powerful. It cant be done. Women are as smart/smarter than men, but if you put women and men in close quarters, relationships will develop past mere friendships with consequences that do not fit with military discipline and morale, period.

Hell, a group of 4 guys cant even remain FRIENDS once you introduce sometimes the IDEA of a particular girl... now imagine a crew stuck underwater with each other for months.

[FERdeBOER]

That's why there are few woman playing warGAMES. She came here asking for a doubt (sorry I don't know the answer), and we begin a discussion about woman on the war??

What are you suggesting? "female" submarines? the entire crew of one sub male, the crew of other female... maybe pink-painted? :hmm:

We have the Kutnesov right ahead... Launch torpedoes one and three!... ... ... launch the torpedoes!!! where is the weapon officer??? Sir, is on the officials room intimating with the new leutenant... :rotfl:

Are you saying that in a war the crew will be fighting each other for the favours of the girl?

And why only one girl? Why not 10? 20?

[deckard]

females serves on swedish subs, and i havnt hear that would be any problem. :hmm:

[kiwi_2005]

That's why there are few woman playing warGAMES

You haven't played Counterstrike have you.

Theres alot of females that play this game and Quake3, Americans army. Of course most war games are played by males but there are alot of females that play wargames they just ain't recognised. A few years back they had a Quake3 championship (not a wargame more like a futuristic shooter) and the winner was a female she went up against 60 other top players all males and eliminated them all.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Rotluchs

No amount of training will remove/suppress the basic human instinct to mate. Its too powerful. It cant be done. Women are as smart/smarter than men, but if you put women and men in close quarters, relationships will develop past mere friendships with consequences that do not fit with military discipline and morale, period...

Oh please! You make it seem like men are subhuman. It's insulting to suggest that I lose my basic reason when I'm in a room with another woman. Heck, if what you're saying was true, there would be no such thing as monogamy, because none of us would be able to maintain self-control for more than 5 minutes when we were placed in a situation with another woman where our wives were not present. What you're suggesting is beyond ridiculous, and it's insulting to men. I'm sorry, but I am perfectly capable of rational thought when surrounded by women, and I assure you I can control my urge to mate. If any man cannot, then I suggest he needs to seek professional help.

[Twelvefield]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

You haven't played Counterstrike have you.

Theres alot of females that play this game and Quake3, Americans army. Of course most war games are played by males but there are alot of females that play wargames they just ain't recognised. A few years back they had a Quake3 championship (not a wargame more like a futuristic shooter) and the winner was a female she went up against 60 other top players all males and eliminated them all.

:)

I actually got to almost meet that Quake 3 lady, I think back in 2000 at an E3. Maybe 2001, it's a fuzzy memory. I do remember that a) she had no problem going through the maps, and probably could play with the monitor turned off, b) that if the target cursor was going to be anywhere, it was directly between her opponent's eyes, regardless of what her own character was doing, and c) she had the kind of kill-me-now expression you see on the faces of people who work at mall kiosks selling products you've seen on TV.

As for women in submarines, by best friend in University had an unhealthy fascination with the idea of winning the lottery, buying a submarine, and crewing it with all females.

On a slight tangent, I realize that Hollywood is not neccesarily the place to find enlightened social content, but Starship Troopers is one of my more favorite films, and is one of my wife's too. I have read the majority of Heinlein's books, but I am not his greatest fan, in fact, the more I read of him, the more out of touch he gets. The movie kind of takes the book in a broad stroke anyway. Add to that, it was directed by Paul Verhoeven, whose track record in dealing with gender issues has not been exemplary.

But one thing about Starship Troopers that was really smart and ahead of its time was dealing with a society where men and women are truly given equal opportunity. Whatever other flaws there are in the film, (including that Denise Richards never shows us her goodies), a non-sexualized co-ed shower scene in the military is just something we're never gonna see in our lifetimes either on-screen or in real-life, unless of course, we pop the DVD back into the machine...

[kiwi_2005]

she had the kind of kill-me-now expression you see on the faces of people who work at mall kiosks selling products you've seen on TV.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Yes i read about her in a gaming magazine, it even had a photo of her with all these gaming quake3 geeks probably pleading to her to be there wife. Saw a video footage of her playing, and she was very good with the rail gun, she never missed!

[bookworm_020]

Women also serve on Australian Submarines as well as surface ships. :hmm:

Hello and welcome aboard the best submarine simulation on the planet. Good Hunting, Erich Topp U-552

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Beery

Oh please! You make it seem like men are subhuman. It's insulting to suggest that I lose my basic reason when I'm in a room with another woman. Heck, if what you're saying was true, there would be no such thing as monogamy, because none of us would be able to maintain self-control for more than 5 minutes when we were placed in a situation with another woman where our wives were not present. What you're suggesting is beyond ridiculous, and it's insulting to men. I'm sorry, but I am perfectly capable of rational thought when surrounded by women, and I assure you I can control my urge to mate. If any man cannot, then I suggest he needs to seek professional help.

Five minutes? Try a month. Try a year. I was on a minelayer with a crew of 50, including only three girls. One was a cook, another a steward's mate and the third a navigator. None of them got much attention at first, but as time progressed they grew more and more attractive. You must remember that most of us were young men - boys, really - aged 19-23, with all the pros and cons that entails. At that age we were rather shallow (and we were Navy, too), so you'll have to excuse our hormone levels at the time.

In any case, romantic relationships were inevitable, and one of the girls even told me that some of the married officers had even made passes at her (while they were drunk, that is).

Furthermore, I don't care how hard you train - certain instincts can't be untrained, certainly not with any methods currently employed. Robot soldiers is Hollywood. If you look at any species of mammals, you'll be able to observe the male's protective instincts of the female. That's a really big problem, because it causes men to be over-protective of women in combat, and take unnecessary risks. This is why combat hardened Israel don't mix their frontline troops anymore (correct me if I'm wrong, Avon Lady - 'tis what I've been told).

And then of course there's the mating instinct. In an outfit of men and women, there will be romantic ties. Romantic ties within the same unit can - and typically will - lead to unprofessional behaviour.

I also have the fortune of knowing quite a few people with special forces background, and many of them with real combat experience. And it should come as no surprise that after an action, they need to relieve stress. And sex is the best (certainly the most tempting) stress relief.

I can't state too often how unrealistic it is to train someone to disregard their primal urges short of castration. That's like training someone not to pee, ever.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for women in the military. But history has shown (WWII Russians, for instance) that same-sex units are the most efficient. A unit of only women will be considerably more efficient than a mixed unit. Men and women also think and learn differently, and take different paths to reach the same goal. A training programme which is optimal for men might not be optimal for women, and vice versa.


A last comment: it's not so much a problem for a man when he's surrounded by women. It's when there's a shortage of women that the problem arises. Ten men and only one woman - that's competition.