New president IRAN: Wipe Israel of face of the earth !

[tycho102]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

It's the people AND the religion.

I disagree, but only with the specifics. I think it's the current hierarchy of the religion. It's the madarassas (however it's spelled; Muslim school) and the Imams and Ayatollahs and clerics. It's the way they are "teaching" the religion. They are focusing on the second half of the Koran, after Muhammed conquered Mecca, and not the Medina side of the Koran. Plus all the hadith.

They just pick and choose what to teach, and for the past 1000 years, the violent side has been the most successful. People like power, and the Ayatollahs want as many "believers" as possible, since they get to rule over more people.

We end up fighting the religion, yes. Because of the way it's been taught, and because of the feudal systems of government that Muslim leaders enjoy. Control literacy, and you can control the people; it's been that way since the Incans and Egyptians flourished. Since North Korea was founded.

Also, there is something to be said for subjugating an area, rather than liberating it. Subjugate then liberate; vice versa doesn't work, and hasn't worked. At least, I cannot think of a single historical example with populations larger than 5 million; liberation worked for the French during their civil war, but that was just the Bastille.

[Hitman]

So this discussion starts again.... ad it looks to me as it will be here to stay

Ever hear of Andalusia?

Yes, it is a place in Spain where our Kings Ferdinand and Isabella (Who called themselves the "Catholic Kings") threw all jews off, in the name of the christian catholic god.

We have had this discussion already, there are historic episodes that show both muslim radicalism and christian radicalism, and in all they lived together in relative peace. True, christians payed more taxes, and had some disavantages, and of course some small muslim Kingdoms (Taifas Kingdoms) showed terrible episodes of intolerance. But that was not the general thing here. But of course we can dive in history to find examples of genocides and terrible things done in the name of all existing religions. Even nowadays.

My opinion about this question remains unchanged: It's people who are bad, not the religions or ideas. As long as there is a single muslim who does a peaceful and honourable interpretation of the Islam, and lives in peace with the rest, I will not change my mind. And there is nowadays not a single one, but a large amount of them who show daily how they can live in respect and peace with neighbours from other religions.

Sixpack, don't you really know a single muslim who deserves a different judgement than the one you made at the beginning of this topic? Not a single one? Think about it

[XabbaRus]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

Hindus are not allowed to eat cows. Muslims are not allowed to eat swine. Through cultural standards, however, they are obligated to be good guests and eat what is being served. So Hindus will go visit their Muslim friends when they feel like eating cattle, and Muslims will visit their Hindu friends when they want pork. However, bound by the aforementioned cultural standards, they are also obligated to be good hosts. So the Hindus will avoid putting pork on the menu in consideration for the Muslims, and the Muslims will avoid putting cow on the menu in consideration for the Hindus!

Hope to hell they don't ban eating chicken........


Oh and Saudi Arabia is a country that stops you taking in a bible...But no one has a go at them, they are our allies...

[August]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

I was making no comparisons. Quite the contrary, I made up that example precicely because it is unfair - that was my point. Just like it's unfair to point to Iran and say, "THAT's what Islam is like", or to bring up Muslim expansion in the first millennium as a pointer to modern Islamic practices.

Muslims very often mention the Crusades as justification for all kinds of anti western activities so why isn't turnabout fair play?

What Muslim country does? Even Iran recognizes Christians' rights to practice - what is not permitted under any circumstances, though, is for Muslims to convert to something else. But that's it.

Theres more to it than that. See the plight of the Coptics and Chaldeans for two examples, then ask yourself how many Christian churches there are in Mecca. I would venture to say that whatever tolerance Christians enjoy in Muslim countries is pure tokenism.

Why are you talking about Christian nations, when I am talking about Islam? Islam is a religion, not a country. You should be talking about Christians, not Christian nations, or your parallells are invalid.

The point i was making is there are no Christian "nations", at least not anymore, on the other hand how many modern Arab and Persian nations have official state religions?

The Islam definition of "infidel", correct me if I'm wrong, is anyone not belonging to the "book" faiths, ie. any of the Judaeic religions.

Actually "Infidel" is the (rather disparaging) term for the book faiths, sort of like "******" or "goyim".

"Pagan" (translated) is how everyone else ie Hindus, Buddists etc, are referred to, and who don't enjoy any protection under Islamic law at all.

However, having friends in foreign countries are quite helpful for insight, and I'm happy to report that your views on Islam are due for a critical update. Case point: Islam has a solid foothold in parts of India, where Hinduism is dominant. An Indian friend of mine says that Hindu and Muslim neighbours get along just dandy with one another, but what's more:

Hindus are not allowed to eat cows. Muslims are not allowed to eat swine. Through cultural standards, however, they are obligated to be good guests and eat what is being served. So Hindus will go visit their Muslim friends when they feel like eating cattle, and Muslims will visit their Hindu friends when they want pork. However, bound by the aforementioned cultural standards, they are also obligated to be good hosts. So the Hindus will avoid putting pork on the menu in consideration for the Muslims, and the Muslims will avoid putting cow on the menu in consideration for the Hindus!

Oh yeah Pakistanis and Indians get along swimmingly.

But it is true that Muslims tend to get along better with non Muslims when they are in the minority, however as recent history has shown, especially in Africa, when Muslims are in the majority they tend to try to impose Islamic law on non Muslims.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Hope to hell they don't ban eating chicken........


Oh and Saudi Arabia is a country that stops you taking in a bible...But no one has a go at them, they are our allies...

Well, the US still execute people, but nobody has a go a them, they are our allies...

See how it's possible to find objectionable qualities in every country/culture?

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by August

Muslims very often mention the Crusades as justification for all kinds of anti western activities so why isn't turnabout fair play?

The arguments I've heard used the most is how the West (and the US in particular) has imposed themselves in foreign, Muslim lands. And this argument is not without merit. The Coca Cola company alone - one of the really big symbols of America - is responsible for several humanitarian disasters such as drought and pollution. I am not defending terrorist attacks or statements, but to view today's terror as completely unprovoked is both misleading and dangerous. We can't combat terrorism without understanding its true causes.

Theres more to it than that. See the plight of the Coptics and Chaldeans for two examples, then ask yourself how many Christian churches there are in Mecca. I would venture to say that whatever tolerance Christians enjoy in Muslim countries is pure tokenism.

And I would venture to say that the tolerance Muslims enjoy in several Christian countries (I'll defend my use of the term further down) is equally just tokenism. There are plenty of people like you who only tolerate them as far as you're bound by law.

The point i was making is there are no Christian "nations", at least not anymore, on the other hand how many modern Arab and Persian nations have official state religions?

Actually, Norway is a Christian country in the traditional sense, in that we do not have a separation between state and church. Still, our culture is far more secularized than e.g. the US, where there is supposed to be such a separation. Still, how many times do I hear "God bless" this or "God bless" that? In Norway, no politician would get away with it - and we're a Christian nation! Our King is bound by Constitution to be Lutheran Evangelical Christian, our official state religion. All children born are born members of the Church unless otherwise specified.

But I would call any country with a clear majority of Christians a Christian country. The US is a prime example, particularly when considering the Bible belt. How much tolerance for Islam do you find there?

Actually "Infidel" is the (rather disparaging) term for the book faiths, sort of like "******" or "goyim".

"Pagan" (translated) is how everyone else ie Hindus, Buddists etc, are referred to, and who don't enjoy any protection under Islamic law at all.

Actually, I remember now, you're right. Christians also used the word "pagan" for anyone not belonging to the book faiths.

Oh yeah Pakistanis and Indians get along swimmingly.

That's a political issue, not a religious one. Blame the Brits for that one, they drew the borders.

But it is true that Muslims tend to get along better with non Muslims when they are in the minority, however as recent history has shown, especially in Africa, when Muslims are in the majority they tend to try to impose Islamic law on non Muslims.

This is true, but you must also take into consideration that in modern history they have become very defensive because of Western foreign policies, and they perceive us as wanting to impose our way of life on them. That's why they fear our "decadence"; for the same reason we feared Communism during the Cold War (and especially during the McCarthy period).

[Onkel Neal]

I think we should spend less time obsessing over Sixpack's generalization and concern ourselves with the Iranian head of state who wants to repeat the Holocaust.


Muslims, this is your house, who among you is going to clean it?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by August

The point i was making is there are no Christian "nations", at least not anymore, on the other hand how many modern Arab and Persian nations have official state religions?

Vatican City is a sovereign nation.

[Dead Mans Hand]

My vote?

Let Iran attack Israel with everything it has....


... but take the kid gloves off of Israel and let those boys have their fun, anyone remember the Six day war???

[Torpedo Fodder]

If Iran attacks Israel, Tehran and all major Iranian cities west of it will become blackened glass fields. Years ago I would have assumed even Iran would have been sane enough not to do this, but now with tier new president and other likeminded individuals rising to positions of power in Iran, I'm not sure if they could be counted to remain sane, or whether they would believe that Allah would protect them from Israeli reataliation, or that their own national suicide would be worth the destruction of Israel. One thing's for sure, I certainly do not want them to posess nuclear weapons.

As for the reliegious dicussion, let me just say this: I am an athiest (former Christian) who became dissolutioned with organized religion. Lets face it, almost all organized religions have extremly questionable bits to their beliefs, like the Koran specifically calling for the destruction of Jews, ordering believers not to be friends with Jews or Christians, then theres also the infamous "slay the idolaters wherever ye find them". The Bible has plenty of nasty bits as well, especially in the Old Testement (thus by extension the Torah has these problems as well), including advocating mysoginism, slavery, summary execution of homosexuals, and genocide. Now, I'm sure there are many members of organized religions whose faith genuinly compels them to be altruistic, be they Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews or whatever. But in the end, organized religion has caused far more harm throughout history than good, which is why I want no part of it.

[Shock Troop]

Excuse me for using “he� when referring to God. It’s my belief that God is “like� a father.

Anyways…….

Each individual religion can blame the other until the end of time. Every religion has its own shameful past. It’s not a matter of debate, it’s a historical fact.

The problem isn’t any one religion but religions in general. Religions divide people into separate groups. Each of these groups attempts to prove its closer to God than others. Religious groups have spent more energy pointing fingers, casting stones, and killing in the name of God, than they have EVER spent trying to emulate God.

People now have more faith in books, idols, and self serving religious leaders, than they do in God. Do you honestly think that the most powerful and all-knowing being would rely on things such as books to guarantee the authenticity of his word? You’ll have to forgive me but I think the almighty is smarter than this. As far as I’m concerned most religions spread an image of a stupid, lazy, and prejudice God.

I am not an atheist but I do not bind my loyalty to one religion. Truth is truth, no matter where you find it. If you want to spend your life devoted to words in a book, radical ideas, or doctrines set by men, realize that you are devoting your life to everything else but God.

If you kill for God, you are a fool. You are a lost soul that hasn’t got a single clue about the will of God, and I have pity for you. Do you honestly believe that God can’t do it without you? Who are you to pre-empt God’s judgment or wrath? Is God’s plan not moving fast enough for you? Why force men to your version of God when God has clearly given man free will? While you’re at it, make sure you let God know that he’s been fired and you’ve taken over his job.

In my opinion, there are many GOOD things that religions have in common. Those aspects are common between religions because they are truths. Things like giving, forgiveness, caring, love, and honesty. Concentrate on those truths because they are the only things that endure. Understand that your religion should be YOUR relationship with God based on the answers you have discovered, not what everyone else decides for you. Realize that NO ONE knows all the answers about God and anyone claiming to, is a damned liar.

My 2 cents…

[Damo1977]

The actual statement was,
"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad declared that Israel is a "disgraceful blot" that should be "wiped off the map."

Originally Posted by Sixpack

Like a broken record those Iranian arseclowns keep repeating the old islamic political core-message.

Substitute Iranian for American, and take out the Islamic part we get Mr Bush, OMG I am American Ally.

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Not bad for a small sect that started off in the Arabian peninsula and had no trains or planes to expedite their movement.

You call me Nazi (lol), Avon Lady. I believe you would come close with your true love for Israel, I gather from reading your writings.

Originally Posted by Gizzmoe

It´s the people, not the religion!!!

So true.............


Anyhow,

I HATE NUKES........get rid of them!!!!!!!

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Damo1977

The actual statement was,
"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad declared that Israel is a "disgraceful blot" that should be "wiped off the map."

I feel better already!

Substitute Iranian for American, and take out the Islamic part we get Mr Bush, OMG I am American Ally.

Why? I fail to see the correlation.

You call me Nazi (lol), Avon Lady. I believe you would come close with your true love for Israel, I gather from reading your writings.

Go ahead and base your claim. I don't recall calling you a Nazi. I do recall saying you were an anti-semite and posting your explicitly anti-semitic posts for all to see here.

Go ahead. Put up or shut up.

So true.............

So Islam does not advocate holy wars? Conquest of infidel lands? Decapitations? Subjugation and domination of non-Islamic populaces? Death of idol worshipers? Imposition of Islamic Sha'aria law once the possibility arrises? How about lying to deceive infidels?

All of the above?

None of the above?

You seem to know.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I think we should spend less time obsessing over Sixpack's generalization and concern ourselves with the Iranian head of state who wants to repeat the Holocaust.

Neal, If Sixpack confined his post to the topic talking about the Iranian president and Iran's pathetic "Death to America" and "Death to Israel" foreign policy then that would be fine. The problem is he didn't. Instead he used it as a vehicle to vent his unashamed ignorance and hate of muslims. It is the month of Ramadhan and at present I am fasting so I will return to this topic this evening.

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Muslims, this is your house, who among you is going to clean it?

What do you mean exactly by this? Could you please expand or clarify on this thanks? For the record as far as I know there are only two Muslims on the Subsim forums, those being myself and Caspofungin. Again, if you could just clarify what you mean by this question?

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Hitman

My opinion about this question remains unchanged: It's people who are bad, not the religions or ideas. As long as there is a single muslim who does a peaceful and honourable interpretation of the Islam, and lives in peace with the rest, I will not change my mind. And there is nowadays not a single one, but a large amount of them who show daily how they can live in respect and peace with neighbours from other religions.

Sixpack, don't you really know a single muslim who deserves a different judgement than the one you made at the beginning of this topic? Not a single one? Think about it

Thankyou.