China is today's equivalent of Nazi Germany

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I have to agree, though i am not sure about PROC's intentions towards invasions of non-chinese territory. Compared to Germany they have no neutral country to cross to attack Taiwan, as Germany had. They of course claim the other chinese territory of Taiwan for them, but i do not think they will go further anytime soon.

The inner system of the PROC has a lot of similarities, with new technologies this is supervision on steroids. We of course have the latter, too, just not using it to full extent. Yet.

And OT here, but: Maybe a bit unwise of Biden to threaten China (only) with sanctions in case of an aggressive act towards Taiwan, while at the same time saying he would not go to war over this.. an open invitation? Why did he even say anything about this, instead of keeping Xi Jin Ping in doubt?

Double OT and fictional: what if some western power would sign a military treaty with Taiwan against mainland chinese aggression? I see this as the only chance for Taiwan..

Yeah, Taiwan's goose is cooked. The US will not do anything militarily, no way. Everyone knows that. As far as keeping Xi in doubt, Biden is perpetually in doubt of himself, doesn't even know what year it is half the time.

The level of control the Chinese leaders have over a billion people staggers me, and that no one seems to pay a lot of attention to this danger... crazy. This is a country that does not allow YouTube.

[mapuc]

They(China) has our leaders by their balls.

Markus

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

The West does not have the numbers...nor the will.

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

As far as keeping Xi in doubt, Biden is perpetually in doubt of himself, doesn't even know what year it is half the time.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Yeah, Taiwan's goose is cooked. The US will not do anything militarily, no way. Everyone knows that. As far as keeping Xi in doubt, Biden is perpetually in doubt of himself, doesn't even know what year it is half the time.

The level of control the Chinese leaders have over a billion people staggers me, and that no one seems to pay a lot of attention to this danger... crazy. This is a country that does not allow YouTube.

Agreed

[Skybird]

So far I take it for granted that the Donald will strike back in 2024 (if he lives that long, he is old and his health is said to be not the best). That will be fun to see the Chinese reaction. And the Donald's China policy. And hios Russia policy. Andhis EU policy. All his polcies.



Guy, start hoarding popcorn! Great entertainment ahead!

[Catfish]

@Commander Wallace: re Germany's intention to conquer the world, in WW2

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

I'm not so sure, Catfish. When Reimar and Walter Horton went to Hermann Goering to say they could build an aircraft that would satisfy the requirements of the 1000 x 1000 x 1000 contest [...]
Goering and Hitler wanted the Horton Brothers to build what was termed as the " Amerika Bomber " as their next project. [...]
The Horton's were told that by 1946, Germany would have a functioning Atomic bomb and they needed a delivery system with a long range of about 11,600.

The Horten or Go 229 and its theoretical future changes and use are fascinating, but speculative. Had Germany had the atomic bomb before the war ended, or right at the start, it indeed would have been a game changer. But Germany was not as far in its trials to build one, also because a few of the scientists like Heisenberg actively delayed research, or at least did not spread the knowledge to his more.. nationalist fellow scientists.

The war against England or a probable invasion would not have happened, all that Hitler could hope for was to demoralise England to a ceasefire or giving up. With the existing Luftwaffe already this was not possible – if he had had the atomic bomb in 1941 it probably would have been used to get England out of the war, but not to invade it.

Same with the US, of course Hitler was raging that american bombers bombed german cities and war production into oblivion, and he would have loved retaliation. Carrying bombs or "the bomb" to the US would have been theoretically possible (they also had the ME 264 and a few others), but again this would have been used to get the US out of the war. There was no plan or possibility for an invasion of any kind.

Hitler never wanted to fight England, nor the US, when the latter declared war because of Poland this was of course a blow to his plans, but the only military solution at this time was to get France out of the way so England could not land as it had done in WW1.

Later in the war with Japan at war with the US, declaring war was intended to buy him time in Europe and in the Atlantic; indeed Mr King was a bit of a disaster when it came to organised convoy protection. American waships had attacked german ships already before declaring war, and pushed their national sea boundaries to the mid-atlantic, so war only was a matter of time anyway.

I just don’t see german soldiers sailing to New York and fighting their way ashore, certainly not fighting their way across the country to the other coast.
Germany just did not have the man power, and even with it would have been a crazy idea.


There are some realistic good ideas describing the german theoretical strategy and plans in Herman Wouk's "The winds of war" by a hypothetical german general, but even the US of the time never had to fear an 'invasion'. Not by Germany, and not by Japan.

[August]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

The level of control the Chinese leaders have over a billion people staggers me, and that no one seems to pay a lot of attention to this danger... crazy. This is a country that does not allow YouTube.

It's only possible now because of modern technology. We are entering an era where anything but a completely spontaneous revolution would be impossible to pull off without big brother knowing every step the plotters made, where they went, who they met with, all their correspondence, maybe even have audio and video of face to face meetings. Orwellian nightmares are becoming reality before our very eyes, brought to you by Big Tech.

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

@Commander Wallace: re Germany's intention to conquer the world, in WW2

The Horten or Go 229 and its theoretical future changes and use are fascinating, but speculative. Had Germany had the atomic bomb before the war ended, or right at the start, it indeed would have been a game changer. But Germany was not as far in its trials to build one, also because a few of the scientists like Heisenberg actively delayed research, or at least did not spread the knowledge to his more.. nationalist fellow scientists.

The war against England or a probable invasion would not have happened, all that Hitler could hope for was to demoralise England to a ceasefire or giving up. With the existing Luftwaffe already this was not possible – if he had had the atomic bomb in 1941 it probably would have been used to get England out of the war, but not to invade it.

Same with the US, of course Hitler was raging that american bombers bombed german cities and war production into oblivion, and he would have loved retaliation. Carrying bombs or "the bomb" to the US would have been theoretically possible (they also had the ME 264 and a few others), but again this would have been used to get the US out of the war. There was no plan or possibility for an invasion of any kind.

Hitler never wanted to fight England, nor the US, when the latter declared war because of Poland this was of course a blow to his plans, but the only military solution at this time was to get France out of the way so England could not land as it had done in WW1.

Later in the war with Japan at war with the US, declaring war was intended to buy him time in Europe and in the Atlantic; indeed Mr King was a bit of a disaster when it came to organised convoy protection. American waships had attacked german ships already before declaring war, and pushed their national sea boundaries to the mid-atlantic, so war only was a matter of time anyway.

I just don’t see german soldiers sailing to New York and fighting their way ashore, certainly not fighting their way across the country to the other coast.
Germany just did not have the man power, and even with it would have been a crazy idea.


There are some realistic good ideas describing the german theoretical strategy and plans in Herman Wouk's "The winds of war" by a hypothetical german general, but even the US of the time never had to fear an 'invasion'. Not by Germany, and not by Japan.

I'll say this, even though Germany was just about the size of a single US state, it took almost the entire world 6 years to defeat them and that says something about their natural pugnaciousness and skill at warfare.

That plus the fact that we had thousands of homegrown nazis holding rallies in Madison Square Garden among other places before the war lent credence to the out to dominate the world concept. Maybe the fuherer of America was not going to be a native born German but he'd be wearing a swastika and reporting to them if hitler and co had got their way and that's close enough to world domination for me.

[Sean C]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That will be fun to see the Chinese reaction. And the Donald's China policy. And hios Russia policy. Andhis EU policy. All his polcies.

As the first and only U.S. President to step foot in N. Korea, brokering a deal between Bahrain, the U.A.E. and Israel and at least planning to get U.S. troops out of every corner of the globe - among other things - he was, IMO, doing at least something right with his foreign policy. I think there may be advantages to having an unpredictable, narcissistic and perhaps psychopathic person with his finger on the button.

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by Catfish

@Commander Wallace: re Germany's intention to conquer the world, in WW2

The Horten or Go 229 and its theoretical future changes and use are fascinating, but speculative. Had Germany had the atomic bomb before the war ended, or right at the start, it indeed would have been a game changer. But Germany was not as far in its trials to build one, also because a few of the scientists like Heisenberg actively delayed research, or at least did not spread the knowledge to his more.. nationalist fellow scientists.

The war against England or a probable invasion would not have happened, all that Hitler could hope for was to demoralise England to a ceasefire or giving up. With the existing Luftwaffe already this was not possible – if he had had the atomic bomb in 1941 it probably would have been used to get England out of the war, but not to invade it.

Same with the US, of course Hitler was raging that american bombers bombed german cities and war production into oblivion, and he would have loved retaliation. Carrying bombs or "the bomb" to the US would have been theoretically possible (they also had the ME 264 and a few others), but again this would have been used to get the US out of the war. There was no plan or possibility for an invasion of any kind.

Hitler never wanted to fight England, nor the US, when the latter declared war because of Poland this was of course a blow to his plans, but the only military solution at this time was to get France out of the way so England could not land as it had done in WW1.

Later in the war with Japan at war with the US, declaring war was intended to buy him time in Europe and in the Atlantic; indeed Mr King was a bit of a disaster when it came to organised convoy protection. American waships had attacked german ships already before declaring war, and pushed their national sea boundaries to the mid-atlantic, so war only was a matter of time anyway.

I just don’t see german soldiers sailing to New York and fighting their way ashore, certainly not fighting their way across the country to the other coast.
Germany just did not have the man power, and even with it would have been a crazy idea.


There are some realistic good ideas describing the german theoretical strategy and plans in Herman Wouk's "The winds of war" by a hypothetical german general, but even the US of the time never had to fear an 'invasion'. Not by Germany, and not by Japan.

The point you made earlier Catfish was that Germany didn't have designs on world Global domination. The fact that the Horton 6 jet engine bomber was dubbed the " Amerika Bomber " to me says it all. In fact, it seems Hitler was bent on Global domination, if not then in WW2, then later. You are correct that this is just speculation.

Considering the vast size of the U.S, nothing short of an atomic attack would have hurt America and most likely only hardened their resolve and Germany would have faced a back lash and " blood lust " of the U.S itself on a whole new level. The fact that the Horton's were told that an atomic bomb was in development and would be available in 1946 and they were directed to create a strategic bomber speaks to Hitler wanting to take the U.S down as well.

Oddly enough, if Hitler had been truly interested in lifting his country out of it's economic difficulties, it would have left it"s Jewish citizens in peace. A great number of it's Jewish citizens were physicists, engineers and others that were educated in other areas that could have been used to lift Germany to where it is now. Further, It's Jewish citizens could have helped in the development of weapons. Once finished, Hitler could have dealt with his " Jewish " problem.

Unfortunately, his hatred of the Jewish population in Germany, Poland and other countries resulted in the stupid, horrific, brutal and needless slaughter of millions. A great number of German citizens were taken on this terrible ride as well.

With regards to scientific research and development, Germany was the best. One only need look at it's excellent submarines ( u-boats ) aircraft including the Horton designs, the advanced jet engine designs and advanced later tanks, such as the Panther, Panzer and Tiger I and Tiger II not to mention the first assault rifles, the Sturmgewehr 44, ( "assault rifle 44") or the StG 44.

While the Me 262 fighter bomber was ahead of it's time, it would have had little to no effect on mainland America even if it could have overcome it's logistical issues.

It's very easy to admire the engineering of the German military while at the same time, detesting the policies that put them on the battlefields and oceans. Former German citizen and rocketry expert Werner Von Braun was instrumental in creating the Saturn 5 launch vehicles as well as the Jupiter C, Juno 2, as well as the Jupiter and Redstone Ballistic missile vehicles.

With regards to the " Amerika Bomber " there were a great number of logistical issues such as refueling that made bombing the U.S a fantasy at best.

By the way, I read Herman Woulk's " the winds of war " and saw the mini series featuring Robert Mitchum and a great cast. I thought it was great.


Excellent breakdown, Catfish.

[Catfish]

^ thanks for your statement too

re August the fact that there were national socialists in the US as there were a few in England does not necessarily mean that Hitler had started those movements directly, he sure saw his ideology as an idea which time had come; so he of course did not hinder them and did a bit of support – but there was not so much real/effective support in the end, also the main part of the population(s) were against Hitler's idea of an NS-like government in their countries. Seeing what had happened in Germany, together with some democratic background, their governments also were a bit wiser in quenching certain development in its early stages.


re Commander Wallace you are not wrong, but this idea of the Amerika bomber was, as the so-called "Vergeltungswaffen" (retaliation(!) weapons), an idea of the later war, when England would not budge, and America did not hold back fighting his boats even before an official declaration and a state of war officially existed. He was furious and really did not understand why they did this to his plans, or why at all. After all his ideas were about race, so why should THEY fight him?

Call him delusional (what he was) or crazy (what he openly became later), but in his initial invasion ideas he was only fixated on Russia, and had no plan to attack England or the US. There were of course plans in the drawer, with "if- cases", like Plan Weiß, Plan Blau and all that, but no one in the german Hitler entourage really believed that things would happen as they then did. Even Doenitz was astonished ("Total Germany" – "That this just of all happens to me, again"), and with his knowledge and experience this means something.
You can call them delusional, but they were not as crazy as planning an attack on the US. After 1943 it was all possible, as it was all in free fall regarding Germany winning the war.

[Catfish]

China's troll king ..

https://www.theguardian.com/news/202...se-nationalism

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

re August the fact that there were national socialists in the US as there were a few in England does not necessarily mean that Hitler had started those movements directly, he sure saw his ideology as an idea which time had come; so he of course did not hinder them and did a bit of support – but there was not so much real/effective support in the end, also the main part of the population(s) were against Hitler's idea of an NS-like government in their countries. Seeing what had happened in Germany, together with some democratic background, their governments also were a bit wiser in quenching certain development in its early stages.

Yeah but Hitler didn't start the nazi movement in Germany either, he just rode it to power. However I was talking about the perception of nazi world domination. It doesn't really matter if that was truely their ultimate goal or not, it's what the rest of the world believed were their intentions and given the amount of territory and nations they had attacked and overrun it's not an unreasonable belief. Whether the English or American nazis would have subjugated themselves to Hitler I guess depends on how much help they needed to gain power. Like you said neither were popular enough to win over their countries but if they came to power using German military might they would at least be beholding to them.

[mapuc]

Maybe China is equivalent to Nazi Germany.

There's a big different between them

Nazi Germany didn't exactly have a hook on other countries.

China does have many hooks(can't come up with the correct words) on us-Either by our debt to them or their huge investment in our countries.

Markus

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by August

Yeah but Hitler didn't start the nazi movement in Germany either, he just rode it to power.

For all i learned i have to disagree. Hitler was not dumb, he (ab)used the nationalist feelings, the notion of having been betrayed by the Versailles treaty, the hate against communists, the poverty, bank fails, inflation and the search for a scapegoat for all those bad things (the jews) and amalgamated it all into his own creation, the NSDAP.
His book "Mein Kampf" just blamed it all on "Untermenschen", jews and generally "the left", and the (fabricated) theory of the "Wise of Zion"; quite convenient to blame it all on others.

He then organised the first militia to scrap with the communists in the streets, the SA (Sturmabteilung), which recruited itself through the various nationalist freecorps who were not organised before, and promised to install law and order on the streets again. And it worked. He promised jobs. He delivered (who knew or cared if it was for war), he re-installed pride, promised to make Germany great again. He generally said all the various people wanted to hear, pleasing them all, adapting his ideas to the different groups he spoke to, sometimes saying the exact opposite he said a day before, at least in the first years before he had gained all the power. he was everywhere, "Hitler über Deutschland", landing in every major city and holding speeches.

For the left he was the socialist party, for the right he was the national party, and for the workers he was the worker's party. Not much cared if this made any sense, the few who did were killed or went into exile.
The nobility was a bit miffed, but most arranged themselves, after all the Kaiser was not anymore. (The House of Hohenzollern in 2021 has just tried to reclaim territory that had been taken away after the war claiming they had nothing to with, and not supported, Hitler. There was enough hard evidence though, they lost before court.)

The NSDAP and what you call "Nazi" was exactly Hitler's idea, plan, and execution. And a lot felt at home with it. Hell why not? Pride, jobs, money, an identification.
The Weimar Republic was hated by almost all, though it was e.g. them who invented and built the "Autobahn", but Hitler taking credit.
Nothing new under the sun.

However I was talking about the perception of nazi world domination. It doesn't really matter if that was truely their ultimate goal or not [...]

But this is a difference! The perception and propaganda abroad was of course that Germany wanted to "conquer the world", easiest way to unite them against Hitler. It looked that way, but in fact it was a chain of events that were not planned.
Hitler and Stalin invade and conquer Poland.
Because of this special treaty England declares war, but only against Germany.
France followed within hours.
Hitler with his WW1 experience and the trench war had only the choice to hinder England to land in France and support, a repetition of the endless trench battles in WW1 had to be avoided at any cost.
So Hitler invades France, even if this took quite a while.
England wanted to occupy Norway (it already had done so with Iceland), this had to be avoided, because of England using it as an attack platform and because of the precious ores. So he was a bit faster, while losing almost all his destroyers against the english fleet, that then just turned away.
Then Mussolini attacking Greece and colonies in Africa, but not be able to do it, again Hitler could not afford to see Italy lose. So Greece, Crete, North Africa, but not able to get Gibraltar and Malta.

[...] it's what the rest of the world believed were their intentions and given the amount of territory and nations they had attacked and overrun it's not an unreasonable belief.

It looked like that and it is what "the rest of the world" believed, yes. The USA still completely out of the question.
Invasion of Russia, and this was it. The second he attacked most of the german military high command thought the war was lost, and they were right.
It was astonishing to see how far Germany came, but lack of resources and logistics, false optimistic (for Germany) planning made it all clear in 1943.

Whatever, thanks for your input even if i do not entirely agree