Fraud or coincidence? - Page 2

Platapus · 12-08-20, 06:37 AM

Randomness is more complicated than may first appear.

There is a difference between a set that is randomly generated and a set that is random.

A random number generator can produce the set of {1,2,3,4,5,...} It would be most unlikely, but possible. Each number was generated independently of the rest of the numbers but just happens to result in a pattern. The longer the pattern, the less likely it will happen, but it will never be 0%

It is also affected if the numbers can't be reused.

There are situations where you want a set of numbers that are truly random. This actually can take quite a lot of calculations to ensure that no accidental patterns are generated. One of the enduring (albeit extremely boring) mathematics questions is whether there is a maximum set of numbers that can be truly random.

Yeah, I actually used to work with people who cared about this sort of stuff.

So in the case of shuffling music, each selection was probably randomly selected, but if the population set was limited, it would be difficult to construct a run of "random" songs that would not incidentally result in a recognizable pattern of some sort.

Catfish · 12-08-20, 07:24 AM

If i remember right the standard and fixed random number of the ZX 81 was 5,863...
If you wanted a real random number you had to write a program for this.

Von Due · 12-08-20, 11:20 AM

^Unfortunately, no program can exist that generates truly random number. That is, it can not exist on any computer as we know them today. All computers need exact instructions, and you can't have instructions on randomness. Randomness is, among other things, the absence of instructions.

You can connect a computer to say, a geiger counter which registers particles ejected from a radio active source. Those processes are, as far as anyone has been able to tell, truly random. Let the computer run through a sequence of numbers and pick one whenever the geiger counter registers a particle.

By itself, no computer can pick randomly.

Platapus · 12-08-20, 12:44 PM

But you can program a computer to look for and identify many different patterns that may be generated.

But you are right, for those applications that need a set of random numbers, getting them takes a lot of computing effort.

12-08-20, 06:37 AM	#16
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,444 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Randomness is more complicated than may first appear. There is a difference between a set that is randomly generated and a set that is random. A random number generator can produce the set of {1,2,3,4,5,...} It would be most unlikely, but possible. Each number was generated independently of the rest of the numbers but just happens to result in a pattern. The longer the pattern, the less likely it will happen, but it will never be 0% It is also affected if the numbers can't be reused. There are situations where you want a set of numbers that are truly random. This actually can take quite a lot of calculations to ensure that no accidental patterns are generated. One of the enduring (albeit extremely boring) mathematics questions is whether there is a maximum set of numbers that can be truly random. Yeah, I actually used to work with people who cared about this sort of stuff. So in the case of shuffling music, each selection was probably randomly selected, but if the population set was limited, it would be difficult to construct a run of "random" songs that would not incidentally result in a recognizable pattern of some sort. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

12-08-20, 07:24 AM	#17
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,822 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	If i remember right the standard and fixed random number of the ZX 81 was 5,863... If you wanted a real random number you had to write a program for this. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

12-08-20, 12:44 PM	#19
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,444 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	But you can program a computer to look for and identify many different patterns that may be generated. But you are right, for those applications that need a set of random numbers, getting them takes a lot of computing effort. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

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12-08-20, 11:20 AM	#18
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,691 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	^Unfortunately, no program can exist that generates truly random number. That is, it can not exist on any computer as we know them today. All computers need exact instructions, and you can't have instructions on randomness. Randomness is, among other things, the absence of instructions. You can connect a computer to say, a geiger counter which registers particles ejected from a radio active source. Those processes are, as far as anyone has been able to tell, truly random. Let the computer run through a sequence of numbers and pick one whenever the geiger counter registers a particle. By itself, no computer can pick randomly.