Auschwitz guard charged

[Wolferz]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Are you ready and willing to make that case against the 20 families bringing the charges?

I would have only one question for them...

"Will it restore anyone to living status again?"


"Revenge is a dish best served cold"
Old Klingon proverb

[BrucePartington]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-moment.html

""Groening said memories of the camp occupied his 'every waking moment' - adding: 'I will never be free of them'.

'One time a drunken SS man discovered a crying baby on the platform, he said. 'He grabbed the waif by its legs and smashed its head against the side of a truck. My blood froze when I saw it.
'When I saw this I went to my superior officers and made an application for a transfer to the front, to anywhere. But he refused. Down the years I have heard the cries of the dead in my dreams and in every waking moment. I will never be free of them.
'It was becoming harder and harder to suppress everything I saw. On one night in January 1943 I saw for the first time how the Jews were actually gassed. It was in a half-built farmyard near to the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp. A gas chamber was built there. We were searching the wood nearby for prisoners who had escaped. (...)

'I again made an application for a transfer and at the end of October 1944 I was shipped to the Belgian Ardennes where I served with a fighting unit until capture.'
Since the war, Groening admitted he has been driven back to Auschwitz because of his 'shame'.""

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Tell that to the 20 co-plaintiffs who are pursuing justice.

Justice or revenge?

Do the plaintiffs even know the difference after all these years?

[BrucePartington]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

He complained about the individual excesses, the lax discipline, not the mass murder which he saw as legitimate.

His interview in the german media 2005
What did you think when you found out that Jews were being gassed in Auschwitz?
"That it was a tool of waging war. A war with advanced methods."
But you weren't in the war. You were in a factory where systematic murder was being committed.
"If you are convinced that the destruction of Judaism is necessary, then it no longer matters how the killing takes place. As early as 1939, Hitler said in speech that if the Jews were to force a new war on the Germans, it would mean the end of Judaism in Europe."

Well, all this is speculation on our part. None of us is in acquaintance with the full facts. It's just opinion. We'll have to wait for a court deliberation, and hopefully, a public disclosure of said full facts. Until then we'll have to refrain our thirst for blood.

[Oberon]

Legally I believe that they have a case, he was an accessory to the events at Auschwitz, whether or not he was complicit in them is up to the jury to determine. He has expressed regret and has spoken out against Holocaust denial, those are points in his favour, he might get a light custodial sentence, although at his age, any custodial sentence is probably equivalent to life, perhaps he'll get house imprisonment, or something fairly lenient.
Should he be prosecuted? He is 92, going on 93...it's hard for me to understand what these families will achieve through the prosecution, because I have never been in such a situation. They are more fortunate than their contemparies in Russia, I'm not aware of many instances of people prosecuting gulag members in Russia, although I'm sure it has happened, but certainly not to the scale that occurred post-WWII in Germany and across the world. Romania seems to be moving in that direction, which is good, but I'm not so sure about the other former Soviet countries. Perhaps ikalugin can shed some light on the subject?
And I wonder if Russia will pay any reparations to Ukraine for the Holodomor?

I guess, in a way, the families involved in this case are the lucky ones, they can prosecute, they can bring a case forward...there are hundreds of thousands...if not millions...who cannot.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Legally I believe that they have a case, he was an accessory to the events at Auschwitz, whether or not he was complicit in them is up to the jury to determine. He has expressed regret and has spoken out against Holocaust denial, those are points in his favour, he might get a light custodial sentence, although at his age, any custodial sentence is probably equivalent to life, perhaps he'll get house imprisonment, or something fairly lenient.
Should he be prosecuted? He is 92, going on 93...it's hard for me to understand what these families will achieve through the prosecution, because I have never been in such a situation. They are more fortunate than their contemparies in Russia, I'm not aware of many instances of people prosecuting gulag members in Russia, although I'm sure it has happened, but certainly not to the scale that occurred post-WWII in Germany and across the world. Romania seems to be moving in that direction, which is good, but I'm not so sure about the other former Soviet countries. Perhaps ikalugin can shed some light on the subject?
And I wonder if Russia will pay any reparations to Ukraine for the Holodomor?

I guess, in a way, the families involved in this case are the lucky ones, they can prosecute, they can bring a case forward...there are hundreds of thousands...if not millions...who cannot.

True that

[Platapus]

The Frau's grandfather sewed uniforms for the SS. Good thing he is already dead or he would also be up on charges of accessory to thousands of murders.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Good point , because working as a tailor is exactly the same as working on the arrivals ramp at an extermination camp.

Yep, this.

Tough case though.
Hard to prove he didn't do anything wrong/did something wrong.

Yet, the "I only followed orders!" excuse won't and must not cut it, ever.
This is how things like this happen in the first place.
People behaving like sheep, giving away any self-responsibility.

And no, you didn't get shot for saying "I don't do that!".
The Nazi-German military sure was brutal and ruthless, but not exactly arbitrary and chaotic ("last days" excluded).

[Betonov]

Yeah, he's guilty alright.

Now what. Throw him in jail for life, which is half a year ??
He won't live to see the end of trial and taxpayers will pay for another pointless show.

He lived most of his life, his productive life, a free man, he already avoided punishment. His last year in a cell, not worse than a decaying body he's already imprisoned in.

Waste of time

Originally Posted by Betonov

Yeah, he's guilty alright.

Now what. Throw him in jail for life, which is half a year ??
He won't live to see the end of trial and taxpayers will pay for another pointless show.

He lived most of his life, his productive life, a free man, he already avoided punishment. His last year in a cell, not worse than a decaying body he's already imprisoned in.

Waste of time

I tend to agree.

[swamprat69er]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Yeah, he's guilty alright.

Now what. Throw him in jail for life, which is half a year ??
He won't live to see the end of trial and taxpayers will pay for another pointless show.

He lived most of his life, his productive life, a free man, he already avoided punishment. His last year in a cell, not worse than a decaying body he's already imprisoned in.

Waste of time

and money.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

HE's 93 years old..."Unlike most of the others, Groening has openly talked about his time as a guard and says while he witnessed horrific atrocities, he didn't commit any crimes himself." Sounds like a well considered retirement plan to me-ie: "let the state pay for his geriatric costs in a minimum-security institution"?? I doubt his military pen$ion is worth mentioning

Originally Posted by Betonov

Yeah, he's guilty alright.

Now what. Throw him in jail for life, which is half a year ??
He won't live to see the end of trial and taxpayers will pay for another pointless show.

He lived most of his life, his productive life, a free man, he already avoided punishment. His last year in a cell, not worse than a decaying body he's already imprisoned in.

Waste of time

Originally Posted by swamprat69er

and money.

And I thought I was all alone here!

[swamprat69er]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

And I thought I was all alone here!

Not at all. What is to gain from trying him on these 'crimes' at 93 years old? nothing
What is to lose? Just piss away money on a trial. He has had to live the past 60+ years with the nightmares and memories. Isn't that enough?

[Betonov]

Are these people mentioning that money and time could be used for something better than prosecuting almost dead criminals that have nothing left to loose.

Maybe they are mentioning that putting in prison someone that already managed to escape punishment by living a productive normal life, since imprisonment for destroying lives of thousands is usually meant for punishing one by preventing him from enjoying said life, like the one he prevented others from having.

Maybe some will mention that other examples you gave are about as effective in punishing/preventing said crimes as plowing a field with a hamster.

Maybe some will not think like a lawyer, and will be interested in that their tax money, the one they paid enough to ruin a summer vacation, be used for things that actually matter, like prosecuting corrupt officials that actually have something to loose and will actually be punished if convicted.

And maybe, just maybe, some of us, those that are from parts of Europe that actually seen the mentioned war, just want to forget all about it and not give politicians even more historical ammunition for political division about who's grandfather was who during the war.

And if lawyers and prosecutors would have done their job like they were supposed to, this guard would have rotted away in a cell in the seventies, which would actually be a punishment.

[Platapus]

As the saying goes "there is no business like Shoah business."