Swastikas and Germany in the modern day...

[Catfish]

Sry for being off topic -

@Alex.

hmm i think i understand what you mean, but this is still crap especially today (today, that is!)

People hoarding and assisting each other as tribes or whatever in former times to reach a goal above individual laziness or against other bullies was all fine and nice, however there is a point in science and let's say enlightenment where such notions should reach a higher level, and be the base for the whole world population to feel and act as as one against a hostile universe, and work together.
Putin may not be the badest leader Russia had, but his thoughts and mind are very yesterday. There are other less backwards examples of course, which as well do not fit into modern times, any more.

Nations are the problem. As long as there is the idea of some people/nation/etnic blahblahblah being better/more valuable/more-deserving, and (ab)using this feeling to diminish others, there will be war.
As Reagan rightly said, people do not wage wars. Governments [=nations] do.

We are living on borrowed time, not only icbm-wise. Any smaller to middle asteroid can ruin the earth's ecosphere in a minute, and mankind will not survive unless we have spread, and be able to live elsewhere.
Despite our gas giants swallowing most of those snowballs, there will be 'the one', one day. We have not much time - think of it.
There is no point in one Serbia, a big Germany or a super power USA. As is no sense in a dominating China, or Russia.


I am all for internationalism, international science, and to hell with national administrations and kachos, if they hinder science and improving knowledge.

[Friscobay]

The paradox of the swastika does not take long to rear its head, even to areas as seemingly mundane as gaming.

Consider the fact that there have been thousands of downloads to mods that place the correct Kriegsmarine swastika devices back where they historically belong in the SH series. I myself, instantly viewing the thing from a historical aspect rather than that of a budding ''neo-nazi'', said under my breath upon looking at a German craft for the first time in SH3, ''now this is just stupid'' , when seeing UBISOFTS famous Big White Empty Disk Where A Swastika Should Be -Flags.
Closer inspection found that even devices as small as uniform badging, had the ''eagle'' swastikas removed. Now perhaps, UBISOFT, in its Euro sales and in other nations where the swastika is banned, may not have wanted to get its SH versions deep-sixed for including them in the game. I am not sure. However, simply the fact that we head for ''correct ensign/flag'' downloads displays that we are less uptight about the device of the Third Reich, than we are in ensuring greater historical accuracy within military gaming and simulation.
That's just my two pfennigs...

So, you are in favor of a limited freedom of speech. Which wouldn't be freedom of speech, because it is controls in some shape or form. It would be "limited freedom of speech", which isn't "freedom of speech"

Freedom of speech is always limited.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Friscobay

The paradox of the swastika does not take long to rear its head, even to areas as seemingly mundane as gaming.

Consider the fact that there have been thousands of downloads to mods that place the correct Kriegsmarine swastika devices back where they historically belong in the SH series. I myself, instantly viewing the thing from a historical aspect rather than that of a budding ''neo-nazi'', said under my breath upon looking at a German craft for the first time in SH3, ''now this is just stupid'' , when seeing UBISOFTS famous Big White Empty Disk Where A Swastika Should Be -Flags.
Closer inspection found that even devices as small as uniform badging, had the ''eagle'' swastikas removed. Now perhaps, UBISOFT, in its Euro sales and in other nations where the swastika is banned, may not have wanted to get its SH versions deep-sixed for including them in the game. I am not sure. However, simply the fact that we head for ''correct ensign/flag'' downloads displays that we are less uptight about the device of the Third Reich, than we are in ensuring greater historical accuracy within military gaming and simulation.
That's just my two pfennigs...

Dunno. If you had some "first hand" expirience of national socialism, or it's aftermath, your eagerness to download according mods may have been a bit dampend.

Business practices based on some national laws, on the other hand, are an entirely differrent topic to begin with.

[Friscobay]

[QUOTE=Gammelpreusse;2191706]Dunno. If you had some "first hand" expirience of national socialism, or it's aftermath, your eagerness to download according mods may have been a bit dampend.




True enough, but may we infer that there should have been no representation whatever of the swastika in say, ''Saving Private Ryan'' ''DAS BOOT'' or ''Band of Brothers'' because of the fact that not a single actor or director in any of these historically-based films lived under national socialism either? It is thus not so much an ''eagerness'' as it is a simple desire to closely match modern interpretations of past historical events with accuracy when it is provided.

Like I say, it is a paradox once history is brought into the discussion.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Friscobay

True enough, but may we infer that there should have been no representation whatever of the swastika in say, ''Saving Private Ryan'' ''DAS BOOT'' or ''Band of Brothers'' because of the fact that not a single actor or director in any of these historically-based films lived under national socialism either? It is thus not so much an ''eagerness'' as it is a simple desire to closely match modern interpretations of past historical events with accuracy when it is provided.

Like I say, it is a paradox once history is brought into the discussion.

As I said, displaying the Swastika in a historical context, just like in movies, is perfectly legal in Germany.

The problem with PC games is that they still are considered "toys" in Germany, yanno? Stuff for little children. Rather debateable, but that is the sole reason why you do not see swastikas even in an historical context here when it comes to games.

What i find strange is, that just of all in Russia, but also in the US, there are so much sympathizers (with the Nazis) who openly use the symbols, and obviously welcome National Socalism.
I mean, Russia ? What do they think the real Nazis thought of them ?

Well, contrary to popular believe, Slavs were not considered "Untermenschen" per se, but just a lower form of Aryans. Fair skinned, blue eyed and so on and on. But then again, these categories were always a bit sketchy and changed according to need, like when the whole Lebensraum stuff became an active policy. And the slavic folks always had their very own superiority/minority complexes, starting with Panslawism.
So them folks just translated the germanic compontents of national socialism to the slavic elements.

[Catfish]

In Germany using swastikas (and i mean the black one on white ground, surrounded by red) is usual and allowed in historic or educational context.
It is forbidden to use such insignias on e.g. flags or posters, or during demonstrations though. I do not think that is such a bad idea, even after this time.
I think it is idiotic to forbid it in PC games though - after all simulations are after all educational - maybe not "Castle Wolfenstein" or such crap lol.


What i find strange is, that just of all in Russia, but also in the US, there are so much sympathizers (with the Nazis) who openly use the symbols, and obviously welcome National Socalism.
I mean, Russia ? What do they think the real Nazis thought of them ?

[Friscobay]

[QUOTE=Catfish;2191714]In Germany using swastikas (and i mean the black one on white ground, surrounded by red) is usual and allowed in historic or educational context.
It is forbidden to use such insignias on e.g. flags or posters, or during demonstrations though. I do not think that is such a bad idea, even after this time.
I think it is idiotic to forbid it in PC games though - after all simulations are after all educational - maybe not "Castle Wolfenstein" or such crap lol.


I agree. When the reader looks to the ''Download'' list here at SUBSIM and views ''most popular downloads'', he is looking at this in the No.3 slot at over 20,000.

''Accurate German Flags''.

For myself, the impetus to include such flags on the sterns of my Type VIIs or German surface ships in SH3, is solely driven by a desire for historical accuracy. The same could be said for installing TRIGGER MARU, or downloading a great mod representation of a BALAO -class periscope and gauge/dial facings , and the like. Simulation, historical re-enactment, living history, all seek accuracy in their use.

[areo16]

Originally Posted by Gammelpreusse

Dunno. If you had some "first hand" expirience of national socialism, or it's aftermath, your eagerness to download according mods may have been a bit dampend.

Business practices based on some national laws, on the other hand, are an entirely differrent topic to begin with.

Many war veterans cannot watch war films or play wargames. But I don't think that brings reason to ban such war films or wargames. I'm trying to understand your point?

[Aktungbby]

The OP leaves out a few items: 1: Freedom of speech is not a blanket absolution even in America. You cannot for example yell "fire" in movie theatre which was the case cited by a Justice on the subject; as it would tend to cause harmful panic and destruction or even death from trampling. 2: In the South, as in previous threads, The Confederate battle flag cannot be flown over public buildings as formerly. It appears Germany deals with the incendiary issue of the Swastika similarily. However the issue is not completely dead as the Bavarian state which holds the copywrite on Mein Kampf prepares to republish what has been a good little money-maker on Amazon in English when the copywrite expires shortly and become eminent domain. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/24/mein-kampf-germany-bavaria-adolf-hitler-memoir_n_1449870.html The Dec. 8, 1999, file photo shows a book store displaying Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" in downtown Sarajevo. (AP Photo/Hidajet Delic with swastika on book jacket)
One of the most controversial books in history is about to come back into print in its homeland -- something that hasn't been true in nearly 70 years. On Monday, the German state of Bavaria announced plans to publish an annotated version of Adolf Hitler’s infamous “Mein Kampf,” according to Der Spiegel.
The southern German state has held ownership of the book’s copyright since the end of World War II, the Associated Press notes, but those rights are due to expire in 2015.
“Mein Kampf” is currently banned in Austria and Russia, the Daily Mail writes. But contrary to popular belief, the notorious book is not banned in Germany -- Bavaria has simply prevented its printing in an effort to control production, the AP notes.
In January, a German magazine ignited controversy when it tried to publish excerpts from the book with critical commentary, the New York Times reports. German authorities took the matter to court, which ruled that any publication of the book violated Bavaria’s copyright.
But now, with the copyright expiration drawing near, Bavaria is publishing its own version of the book and calling it damage control. Der Spiegel reports that the book will include commentaries that condemn Hitler’s arguments. Not to be out done: In the United States the book can be found at almost any community library and can be bought, sold and traded in bookshops. The U.S. government seized the copyright during the Second World War under the Trading with the Enemy Act and in 1979, Houghton Mifflin, the U.S. publisher of the book, bought the rights from the government. 15,000 copies are sold a year. Clearly in Germany, the crooked cross may be banned...but the 'bible' is about to be republished?!! I suspect...Like many celebrities, ol' Adolph of Munich will earn more Deutschmarks dead than alive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf note the swastika on the jacket-shortly to be republished.

[areo16]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

The OP leaves out a few items: 1: Freedom of speech is not a blanket absolution even in America. You cannot for example yell "fire" in movie theatre which was the case cited by a Justice on the subject; as it would tend to cause harmful panic and destruction or even death from trampling. 2: In the South, as in previous threads, The Confederate battle flag cannot be flown over public buildings as formerly. It appears Germany deals with the incendiary issue of the Swastika similarily. However the issue is not completely dead as the Bavarian state which holds the copywrite on Mein Kampf prepares to republish what has been a good little money-maker on Amazon in English when the copywrite expires shortly and become eminent domain. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/24/mein-kampf-germany-bavaria-adolf-hitler-memoir_n_1449870.html The Dec. 8, 1999, file photo shows a book store displaying Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" in downtown Sarajevo. (AP Photo/Hidajet Delic with swastika on book jacket)
One of the most controversial books in history is about to come back into print in its homeland -- something that hasn't been true in nearly 70 years. On Monday, the German state of Bavaria announced plans to publish an annotated version of Adolf Hitler’s infamous “Mein Kampf,” according to Der Spiegel.
The southern German state has held ownership of the book’s copyright since the end of World War II, the Associated Press notes, but those rights are due to expire in 2015.
“Mein Kampf” is currently banned in Austria and Russia, the Daily Mail writes. But contrary to popular belief, the notorious book is not banned in Germany -- Bavaria has simply prevented its printing in an effort to control production, the AP notes.
In January, a German magazine ignited controversy when it tried to publish excerpts from the book with critical commentary, the New York Times reports. German authorities took the matter to court, which ruled that any publication of the book violated Bavaria’s copyright.
But now, with the copyright expiration drawing near, Bavaria is publishing its own version of the book and calling it damage control. Der Spiegel reports that the book will include commentaries that condemn Hitler’s arguments. Not to be out done: In the United States the book can be found at almost any community library and can be bought, sold and traded in bookshops. The U.S. government seized the copyright during the Second World War under the Trading with the Enemy Act and in 1979, Houghton Mifflin, the U.S. publisher of the book, bought the rights from the government. 15,000 copies are sold a year. Clearly in Germany, the crooked cross may be banned...but the 'bible' is about to be republished?!! I suspect...Like many celebrities, ol' Adolph of Munich will earn more Deutschmarks dead than alive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf note the swastika on the jacket-shortly to be republished.

This is very interesting. I do not agree with banning any written material, irregardless of its contents. But I am an American.

I'm getting the sense that the Americans here have a different ideal of Freedom of Speech than the rest of the posters here. Our ideal seems to be more free than the others. Perhaps the teaching of our Bill of Rights to us since a young age has left a permanent mark on our thinking of freedoms.

I do understand why yelling "fire" in a crowded place should be outlawed, as the yelling of the word would and could directly result in physical harm to others as people would be trampling over others, in frenzy. But, I do not think yelling "Hilter", using the word itself, would create any reaction that would harm another. Yelling "Hitler" is not the same as yelling, for example "Hurt that Jew!". The latter of course being a verbal threat, and illegal in most countries.

I do understand why the CSA flag should not be flown over public buildings because it is a flag that represents a different nation than the USA. Just as much so as we should not allow British flags be flown over our public buildings. This is Merica!

[areo16]

I would now like to direct the conversation to another concerned matter of mine:
How are German World War 2 veterans treated in modern day Germany?

Let me all put this in context from my American point of view. World War 2 vets are treated as the "king of veterans" here in the states. WW2 overshadowed WW1, and Korea was seemingly forgotten. For some reason the public turned its back on the Vietnam vets, and the Gulf War veterans don't get the praises of the WW2 veterans because the Middle East wars weren't as bloody or grand as WW2. But of course, I am exaggerating this all a little bit. We do treat all of our veterans well today. Much better than we did in the 60's or 70's.

That being said, we praise our WW2 vets. They are in the news, newspapers, and the movies about the conflict always are popular. Can the same be said of the German veterans of WW2 in Germany? How were and how are they treated in modern-day Germany? Is there a since of pride? Can good things be sought from their actions during the war, even though they fought on the losing end? They did have initial victories.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by areo16

Many war veterans cannot watch war films or play wargames. But I don't think that brings reason to ban such war films or wargames. I'm trying to understand your point?

War != War. War != holocaust. It's also a difference if only your soldiers are sent to some distant place to fight for a "just" cause or when your very own home becomes a battleground and your mere existence a matter of surivial, only to hear afterwards that during this battle some of humankinds most heideous crimes have been comitted in ->your<- name.
Not asking for you to understand it, I guess that comes down to trying to explain to a blind man how colors look like.

I would now like to direct the conversation to another concerned matter of mine:
How are German World War 2 veterans treated in modern day Germany?

Let me all put this in context from my American point of view. World War 2 vets are treated as the "king of veterans" here in the states. WW2 overshadowed WW1, and Korea was seemingly forgotten. For some reason the public turned its back on the Vietnam vets, and the Gulf War veterans don't get the praises of the WW2 veterans because the Middle East wars weren't as bloody or grand as WW2. But of course, I am exaggerating this all a little bit. We do treat all of our veterans well today. Much better than we did in the 60's or 70's.

That being said, we praise our WW2 vets. They are in the news, newspapers, and the movies about the conflict always are popular. Can the same be said of the German veterans of WW2 in Germany? How were and how are they treated in modern-day Germany? Is there a since of pride? Can good things be sought from their actions during the war, even though they fought on the losing end? They did have initial victories.

In regards to german soldiers, that is like asking for rape victims to be praised. Most people back then went through hell and for what? Some gangsters with grandeur complexes. Everything in regards to bravery they may have shown was tainted to the core by their very own leadership. They and their love for the nation got abused, used, that simple. Would you want to be reminded of that every year, no matter in what light it would be shown?

I remember my gradfather, a distinguished soldier, holder of the iron cross 2 class and commander of a quad 20mm AAA unit, who severd in France, Sicily and Italy, in Monte Cassino amongst other locations, breaking out in tears when asked about WW2.

Quote in regards to Hitler "That damn a**hole!"

He neither got nor wanted any appreciation for that whole affair.

Btw., the denazification after the war was not very effective in regards to actual "brainwashing". Nazis stayed on board throughout all levels of society. National Socialism was a good idea badly implemented was a regular point of view well into the 70ies. What really brought the turnaround in how the country dealt with it's past was initiated by the 68ers, as mentioned before.

Wouldn't the solution have been for UBI Soft to have included with the Silent Hunter series, the option to install the historically correct German flags from files built into the game, at the click of a mouse? The default game could show the "politically correct" flags with no need for the player to change that. If he was not offended by historical accuracy, then, again with a mouse click, the player could choose to display the swastika in his game.
Surely, for Silent Hunter fans on this forum, the debate should not be political but, rather, the debate should be be about how easy or how difficult it is for us to download the historically correct flags from the SUBSIM site. I've got 'em - I downloaded them easily and I LOVE 'em! To anybody who is offended by the swastika, don't download the sub flags.

[Spook27]

It does matter whether an emblem is correct or not. Fear of the emblem is what gives it power.

A flag is just a piece of cloth. The actions done in the name of that flag are not the same thing as the flag. There is good and bad in human nature, but censorship is never right.