Russia commemorates 70th years since Leningrad siege

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Dowly

IIRC, the siege was never complete. Supplies were brought into the city from
north, which, in german plans was expected to be blocked by the Finns, who
refused to wage offensive war past the areas lost in the Winter War.

I'm not sure if I misunderstand you here, but we went way past the old border in the Continuation War. Here is a map taken from this page, whereas the border after the Treaty of Tartu looked like this.

Though it's true that Leningrad was intentionally left alone: even the Finnish bombers on recon flights were prohibited from flying over it.

[joea]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I used to really have an issue with the Finnish position in the siege, but the more I learned the more understanding I became towards it. At the end of the day, if the Finns didn't choose to stop at the Svir' (and they easily could've chosen otherwise), Leningrad may have been doomed. Historically, I think Finland needs to accept some culpability in this massive (and mostly German) war crime, but then of course Russia also has to accept the massive injustices it committed towards Finland that didn't leave them much choice except to side with the Germans.

I think it's also safe to say that if the Finns didn't choose to stop their advance at the Svir', I wouldn't be alive today.

Very fair of you CCIP Finland was the only truly honourable member of the Axis, well IMO. Though I think they were actually an "associated power" and not a real member of the Axis. Plus they kicked you know what.

As for the siege - unimaginable. There is a good thread here by a fellow who is a guide to historical sites related to the siege. Events as they unfolded day by day.

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=112905


Of interest to us naval buffs is the big role played by the Red Banner Baltic fleet as floating artillery in defense of the city. They might not have done much else but their role was invaluable.

[Hottentot]

Finland was the only truly honourable member of the Axis, well IMO.

Depends on what you define as honorable, imo. I'd rather say "opportunistic".

When the Winter War ended, it was obvious that we wanted a rematch. The peace agreement was not called "a peace", but "a temporary peace". When the then most powerful European nation (Germany) attacked the Soviet Union, we were happy to jump in the bandwagon.

It has been said that we didn't have a choice (the Driftwood theory), and to certain extent this is true, but I wouldn't swallow it as such: when Barbarossa started, who was going to attack us? The Soviet Union, opening a new front when they were suffering from the German onslaught already and being badly beaten? Or the Germans, who were busy concentrating on their drive to Moscow?

"Honorable" I would define as taking back what we lost in Winter War, but we didn't stop there. Personally I don't doubt that if Germany had won the war, Finland would have been more than happy to occupy some little extra too. However, we left the back door open and it was a wise move: had we participated fully in the siege of Leningrad, I don't think the Soviet Union would have seen us in very good light.

Another example of our honorable behavior was the Ryti-Ribbentrop agreement, but I'm not going to delve any further into that.

Though I think they were actually an "associated power" and not a real member of the Axis.

Plus they kicked you know what.

We still do.

[joea]

Good post Hottentot. Maybe "honourable" was too strong-but compared to what other members of the Axis did Finland looks much less bad. Hey as we discuss ad naseaum here the Western Allies (everyone knows what the Soviets did) did some horrible things as well and it still is a controversial topic.

[nikimcbee]

I've been to their museum, it's pretty somber. @CCIP, great post. It's interesting to hear the personal history.

[sharkbit]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Sadly true.

A meaningful anniversary for me; two of my grandparents (still living) are survivors of the siege. One of my ancestors, a great-great-grandfather, died by starvation. An old man of about 70 at the time, he was on the short end of the already-unlivable rations in December 1941 (100g of bread which was partially made of sawdust). For New Year's (which since the revolution combined New Year and Christmas traditions into one, and became the biggest holiday in Russia since), his family somehow got their hands on about a pound of meat - which must have been worth its weight in gold by that point in the siege. They decided to boil it to make soup for New Year's Eve, and then slowly and carefully consume the rest.
In the early hours of December 31, 1941, my great-great-grandfather, driven mad by hunger, snuck into the kitchen while everyone was asleep and consumed that entire piece of meat. As he was starving for over 3 months at that point, his system obviously couldn't handle it. He died in excrutiating spasms the same day. The family was left without their head of household and their holiday meal that New Year's.

One of my great-grandfathers was at the front outside the city and lost one of his legs to a Finnish sharp-shooter, who'd probably correctly calculated that shooting a junior Soviet officer in the leg out in the open would attract other targets to his aid. It was some time before help actually did come to him. And with the 'support' that crippled veterans received from the Soviet government in the post-war years, ended up a depressed, violent alcoholic who ruined his family and died far, far before his time just a few years later.

One of my grandparents, my grandmother, got lucky but was also exposed to some of the worst Soviet injustice in the siege. She was only 4 years old when it started. It turned out that one of her aunts was the wife of a general, and like many high party and military officials, was secretly receiving and hoarding supplies not accessible to the starving population. She offered my grandmother's family to stay with her, but it was quickly discovered that the aunt had little intention to treat them as family. Rather, they were to do domestic work for her and receive rations. Perversely, some of that domestic work included cooking for said aunt, who guarded her supplies jelaously and would not share anything that they didn't 'earn'. One of the sharpest memories my grandmother has is that of her older sister keeping an eye on when the aunt wasn't in sight in the kitchen, and then grabbing a spoonful of still-boiling rice from the pot on the stove, and sticking it into the poor kid's mouth. It burned, but at least it was a bit of extra food when the rest of the city was dying of starvation.
Needless to say, when my grandmother again met the aunt after the war ended, she refused to say even a word to her, and hasn't done so since. It's rumored, however, that her general husband fell out of favour and karma bit back. Probably not true of the many party officials who hoarded supplies and lived more or less normally during the siege while millions around them died.

Having grown up in the city, I was always surrounded by reminders of it and, unlike a lot of people, didn't ignore them and gave them their due respect. One of the most important moments from my younger days was standing in the middle of the Piskarev cemetery where 600,000 of the victims of the blockade were buried. It's hard to explain, but it just hit me like a brick wall. Like in that little space, just a few football fields in size, I could hardly imagine 600,000 living people standing. But in the silence of that cloudy day, with almost noone around, I seriously felt like those 600,000 people were all around me, watching my every move. A powerful experience, and one that reminded me that it was indeed not a guaranteed thing for me to be there. Somewhere in there, my great-great-grandfather rested, his grave somewhere in one of the big patches marked only by '1941' or '1942' on a small stone slate. My grandparents had every chance to be among those stones too, and if they were, I wouldn't be around today.

That's a feeling of respect for this tragedy that I hope to preserve and convey to other people.

Thanks for sharing.

I remeber seeing pictures of the Piskarev cemetery in a magazine years and years ago(I think it was Life) and trying to get my mind around the fact that each of those slabs were the resting place of tens of thousands of human bings.