Aliens?

[Gargamel]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/digitaltrend...nceofalienlife

http://news.discovery.com/space/has-...nd-110305.html

Aliens for real?

Another scientist has found evidence of alien life in a meteorite.

Possible hoax though, as the publishing journal seems to have a bad rep.

[Oberon]

Time will tell, but I think it's rather inevitable that there is life outside of this planet, one would have to be extremely arrogant to think that we are the only intelligent life in this universe or indeed this was the only planet to contain lifeforms.

[Armistead]

I believe in aliens as much as I believe in Santa Claus. If all the sightings, wrecks, etc were true, we would have some hard facts by now.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I believe in aliens as much as I believe in Santa Claus. If all the sightings, wrecks, etc were true, we would have some hard facts by now.

It is by far more likely that aliens exist than that they don't, especially the non-sentient kind. It's just the intelligent ones being around here that is somewhat more doubtful...

[razark]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I believe in aliens as much as I believe in Santa Claus. If all the sightings, wrecks, etc were true, we would have some hard facts by now.

There's quite a bit of difference between UFOs and microbes.

Our first contact with alien life will probably be a discovery of microbes of some sort. However, I'm feeling a bit skeptical about this one. If it's that big a discovery, why release to an online journal instead of the press conference the engineered arsenic-bacteria got?

We'll see how it plays out.

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by razark

why release to an online journal instead of the press conference the engineered arsenic-bacteria got?

We'll see how it plays out.

Because Like the cold-fusion press conference, that turned into a debacle. Press conferences circumvent the standard procedures for publishing discoveries. Now, in this case, their choice of publications does bring into question the veracity of the discovery. At least this time, on the surface, they are openly and willingly opening this for peer review, in fact they seemed to encourage it, so as you say, we'll see.

[razark]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

Because Like the cold-fusion press conference, that turned into a debacle.

True. However, if they had sufficient evidence, the "We found aliens!" thing would be worthy of a televised conference.

Originally Posted by Gargamel

Press conferences circumvent the standard procedures for publishing discoveries.

I think NASA would be playing the alien life card for every dollar they could get their hands on. Morale is low, PR lacking, funding is getting very tight, and they're even having to look at getting rid of some civil servants.

Originally Posted by The Right Stuff

Gordon Cooper: You boys know what makes this bird go up? FUNDING makes this bird go up.
Gus Grissom: He's right. No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Time will tell, but I think it's rather inevitable that there is life outside of this planet, one would have to be extremely arrogant to think that we are the only intelligent life in this universe or indeed this was the only planet to contain lifeforms.

I agree, but I also believe that there is no life outside of this planet that will ever be of any use or interest to us beyond scientific curiousity. If there was any reachable life that could teach us anything useful, we'd have long since detected their communications signals. If such life was capable of reasonable interstellar travel, we'd have long since discovered both their communications signals and possibly the exhaust of their drives, provided they were engaged in the last 30 years or so.

The only thing we will likely ever discover within our very limited reach, which is made so by the laws of physics and sheer practicability, are dead planets and perhaps some primitive life-forms that are not adapted to life on Earth or any planet or moon in our solar system, making them unexploitable.

For all practical purposes, we are stuck here, and nobody will ever know we are here.

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

I agree, but I also believe that there is no life outside of this planet that will ever be of any use or interest to us beyond scientific curiousity.

The problem with that statement is that Xenobiology is an unknown sciece. Without ever studying anything, there is no way to ever say that is true or not.

If there was any reachable life that could teach us anything useful, we'd have long since detected their communications signals. If such life was capable of reasonable interstellar travel, we'd have long since discovered both their communications signals and possibly the exhaust of their drives, provided they were engaged in the last 30 years or so.

There are almost an infinite number of frequencies that could be broadcast on, and we have to directionally focus our receivers to listen for these signals. Now multiply that by the number of stars to listen to.... You get the idea why it's taking so long. And then you have to process each glump of data to figure out whats out there. (Coincedentally, if you want to help with that, you can join me help filter the data while your computer is not doing anything functional by joining BOINC and installing the SETI@Home project (There's an enigma decoding project too for you subnuts ), and they make for decent screensavers).

Your saying we should be able to see the exhaust from a single ship within 30 years travel, when we are having difficulty detecting asteroids the size of small towns that are a few days/weeks away?

For all practical purposes, we are stuck here, and nobody will ever know we are here.

Probably true, but nothing ventured nothing gained. Kennedy's to the moon speech is coming to mind.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

The problem with that statement is that Xenobiology is an unknown sciece. Without ever studying anything, there is no way to ever say that is true or not.

True enough, but I still think the probability of finding anything worthwhile is small enough that there is no need to actively invest in xenobiology or much beyond localized space exploration, not including orbital observatories.

There are almost an infinite number of frequencies that could be broadcast on, and we have to directionally focus our receivers to listen for these signals. Now multiply that by the number of stars to listen to.... You get the idea why it's taking so long. And then you have to process each glump of data to figure out whats out there.

I used to think the same thing myself. However, once I began studying as a radio operator and took the time to get into the nuances of advanced elements like antennae theory and waveform propagation, I am no longer so sure.

The means by which SETI attempts to detect transmissions through ground-based directional receivers is actually kind of silly. Any type of long-range communications, such as those that would be used to communicate between planets or between a planet and a long-range probe, rely upon powerful transmitters that must operate on relatively long wavelengths to overcome interference.

Think of it this way: a large electromagnetic wave is a lot like a large wave of water, or a very loud sound. It may hit obstacles and suffer some loss of integrity as a result, but the wave is still mostly intact unless it runs into something bigger than it is. Even then, it retains enough energy to bounce off of whatever it hits and then bounce again multiple times and can still be received by the intended recipient. However, it will also be recieved by anyone else within "earshot".

In the void of space, there is virtually nothing that can block a large wave, so it is very likely that we would have detected such transmissions by now if they emanated from a reachable source.

Now, it is possible that an advanced civilization might employ some kind of advanced directional transmission technology that had enough raw power to overcome EMI and enough accuracy to reach a cosmically distant receiver, but such a method of transmission would generate enough "bleed-off" radiation that it would be detectable from a tremendous distance. There is no such thing as a truly "directional" transmitter aside from a physical connection. All antennae are sources omni-directional radiation to some degree, and when you consider the amount of power that it takes to transmit a short-wave signal or a microwave signal reliably over a long distance, those power requirements would be very high.

Hence, we would detect the "spilled" radiation from either source quite easily, assuming we employed an omni-directional reciever in very high orbit, away from the tremendous destructive interference of the earth's atmosphere and magnetospher. Beyond that, it's just a matter of looking for recurring instances of patterned EMF, which a computer can do easily, and interpreting the data.

This is why I say SETI's approach is kind of silly. If they really wanted to find evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, they'd abandon this ridiculous approach of using ground-based dish receivers tuned to look for specific frequencies from specific sources, a few at a time. An orbital omni-directional receiver, which essentially amounts to a large, lightweight EM tuning-fork in space would serve the same purpose and do it much better.

(Coincedentally, if you want to help with that, you can join me help filter the data while your computer is not doing anything functional by joining BOINC and installing the SETI@Home project.

Thanks for the info and the links I'll take a look and consider joining the effort, provided it doesn't add any unreasonable strain to my already somewhat-taxed system resources. I really need to invest in a newer computer.

As much as I complain about SETI, the organization is there already, and if they have a way for me to help I might as well try it.

Your saying we should be able to see the exhaust from a single ship within 30 years travel, when we are having difficulty detecting asteroids the size of small towns that are a few days/weeks away?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You're thinking in terms of active detection. Asteroids are small, cold rocks in space. To detect them, we have to actively paint them with a signal of sufficient power to generate a return, but without so large a wavelength as to miss the object entirely or bounce in a direction not aimed at our receivers. Think of it as looking for a periscope that is millions of miles away with decimetric radar.

A spacegoing vessel that is capable of interstellar or even interplanetary travel at practicable speeds, on the other hand, would generate a tremendous amount of heat radiation by virtue of the energy needed to accelerate its mass, and then slow it down on approach. Even for a very lightweight vessel, we're talking about trillions of kilojoules of energy. That kind of energy would show up on our radio telescopes.

Probably true, but nothing ventured nothing gained. Kennedy's to the moon speech is coming to mind.

And what did we ever get from the moon? It cost us the equivalent of $150 billion or so in today's currency just to land there once and get a some rock samples. Then we went there repeatedly. A lot of scientific data was gleaned in the process, but how much of it do we ever use? How much of that money would have been better-directed at developing something practical, like satellite technology or economic priorities?

[Sailor Steve]

I'm disappointed in you guys. After all, Superman's an alien.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

I agree, but I also believe that there is no life outside of this planet that will ever be of any use or interest to us beyond scientific curiousity. If there was any reachable life that could teach us anything useful, we'd have long since detected their communications signals. If such life was capable of reasonable interstellar travel, we'd have long since discovered both their communications signals and possibly the exhaust of their drives, provided they were engaged in the last 30 years or so.

The only thing we will likely ever discover within our very limited reach, which is made so by the laws of physics and sheer practicability, are dead planets and perhaps some primitive life-forms that are not adapted to life on Earth or any planet or moon in our solar system, making them unexploitable.

For all practical purposes, we are stuck here, and nobody will ever know we are here.

Well just finding life forms that live in extremely harsh environments could be useful in the long run. Imagine finding a lifeform that survives on Europa a moon deep in Jupiter's radiation belt, a complex lifeform that can survive that would be interesting to study to learn how it survives such radiation exposure.

Also outside (or maybe inside) our star system just finding remains of an extinct alien civilization would be worth any $ spent on going there. Who knows what technologies or ideas they left behind.

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

True enough, but I still think the probability of finding anything worthwhile is small enough that there is no need to actively invest in xenobiology or much beyond localized space exploration, not including orbital observatories.



I used to think the same thing myself. However, once I began studying as a radio operator and took the time to get into the nuances of advanced elements like antennae theory and waveform propagation, I am no longer so sure.

The means by which SETI attempts to detect transmissions through ground-based directional receivers is actually kind of silly. Any type of long-range communications, such as those that would be used to communicate between planets or between a planet and a long-range probe, rely upon powerful transmitters that must operate on relatively long wavelengths to overcome interference.

Think of it this way: a large electromagnetic wave is a lot like a large wave of water, or a very loud sound. It may hit obstacles and suffer some loss of integrity as a result, but the wave is still mostly intact unless it runs into something bigger than it is. Even then, it retains enough energy to bounce off of whatever it hits and then bounce again multiple times and can still be received by the intended recipient. However, it will also be recieved by anyone else within "earshot".

In the void of space, there is virtually nothing that can block a large wave, so it is very likely that we would have detected such transmissions by now if they emanated from a reachable source.

Now, it is possible that an advanced civilization might employ some kind of advanced directional transmission technology that had enough raw power to overcome EMI and enough accuracy to reach a cosmically distant receiver, but such a method of transmission would generate enough "bleed-off" radiation that it would be detectable from a tremendous distance. There is no such thing as a truly "directional" transmitter aside from a physical connection. All antennae are sources omni-directional radiation to some degree, and when you consider the amount of power that it takes to transmit a short-wave signal or a microwave signal reliably over a long distance, those power requirements would be very high.

Hence, we would detect the "spilled" radiation from either source quite easily, assuming we employed an omni-directional reciever in very high orbit, away from the tremendous destructive interference of the earth's atmosphere and magnetospher. Beyond that, it's just a matter of looking for recurring instances of patterned EMF, which a computer can do easily, and interpreting the data.

This is why I say SETI's approach is kind of silly. If they really wanted to find evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, they'd abandon this ridiculous approach of using ground-based dish receivers tuned to look for specific frequencies from specific sources, a few at a time. An orbital omni-directional receiver, which essentially amounts to a large, lightweight EM tuning-fork in space would serve the same purpose and do it much better.


Thanks for the info and the links I'll take a look and consider joining the effort, provided it doesn't add any unreasonable strain to my already somewhat-taxed system resources. I really need to invest in a newer computer.

As much as I complain about SETI, the organization is there already, and if they have a way for me to help I might as well try it.


Yes, that's what I'm saying. You're thinking in terms of active detection. Asteroids are small, cold rocks in space. To detect them, we have to actively paint them with a signal of sufficient power to generate a return, but without so large a wavelength as to miss the object entirely or bounce in a direction not aimed at our receivers. Think of it as looking for a periscope that is millions of miles away with decimetric radar.

A spacegoing vessel that is capable of interstellar or even interplanetary travel at practicable speeds, on the other hand, would generate a tremendous amount of heat radiation by virtue of the energy needed to accelerate its mass, and then slow it down on approach. Even for a very lightweight vessel, we're talking about trillions of kilojoules of energy. That kind of energy would show up on our radio telescopes.



And what did we ever get from the moon? It cost us the equivalent of $150 billion or so in today's currency just to land there once and get a some rock samples. Then we went there repeatedly. A lot of scientific data was gleaned in the process, but how much of it do we ever use? How much of that money would have been better-directed at developing something practical, like satellite technology or economic priorities?

I agree there are problems with the way SETI looks. I'm a strong believer in "Visual SETI" that is searching space for mega-structures built by highly advanced species. Also scanning a different parts of the spectrum for evidence of advanced spacecraft in flight (when gamma ray busters were 1st discovered some assumed they were either the star drives of advanced spacecraft or the "Big Honking Space Guns" of some interstellar war.)

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

True enough, but I still think the probability of finding anything worthwhile is small enough that there is no need to actively invest in xenobiology or much beyond localized space exploration, not including orbital observatories.

That's like the Europeans saying there probably isn't anything worth looking for on the other side of this ocean, so let's not go looking (Although politically today, they may agree).

However how highly unlikely it is, could we risk the chance that a superior or group of superior intelligences are just waiting for us to attempt contact, so they can go "Oh Hai! Welcome to the club, Xithinbob over there makes a mean martini, feel free to use the pool!"

I used to think ...... and interpreting the data.

What I understand from that is that you are assuming they are ussing a transmitter designed for insterstellar communications. This is not what SETI is looking for. They are looking for normal everyday radiation coming from a civilization, along with any possible "stellar beacons".

Thanks for the info and the links I'll take a look and consider joining the effort, provided it doesn't add any unreasonable strain to my already somewhat-taxed system resources. I really need to invest in a newer computer.

BOINC is really cool. They have many many many different cloud based supercomputing problems they are working to solve (plate tectonics, weather, chess, gravity waves, etc etc) and the apps only run in the background when your processor is not being utilized (ie screensaver). It's been my screensaver for many years.

As much as I complain about SETI, the organization is there already, and if they have a way for me to help I might as well try it.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You're thinking in terms of active detection. Asteroids are small, cold rocks in space. To detect them, we have to actively paint them with a signal of sufficient power to generate a return, but without so large a wavelength as to miss the object entirely or bounce in a direction not aimed at our receivers. Think of it as looking for a periscope that is millions of miles away with decimetric radar.

My astronomy professor was just talking about them doing that down at Aricibo when he was there two years ago. At night Aricibo sends out "pings" and paints the asteroid belt and other places to search for and image them.