Sorry but Kursk was torpedoed and not by its own

[Raptor1]

The damage you point to is completely incosistant with damage caused by the Mark 48. The Mark 48 has a proximity fuze, which means that it will detonate outside the submarine, leaving no such hole. Even if you say it exploded inside for some reason (Assuming the Mark 48, with it's blunt nose and all, could even penetrate both the inner and outer hulls, which I doubt), the damage such an explosion would cause would easily obliterate the area where it entered.

[fred8615]

Originally Posted by Captain Sub

Initially, the truth was actually stated

First reports never mean anything. On 9/11 it was initially reported a small plane hit the first tower, there was a bomb explosion outside the State Department, the Pentagon was attacked with a bomb, not a plane.

And you also have to consider the source. Is possible this newspaper is/was run by anti-American morons as well?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by fred8615

And you also have to consider the source. Is possible this newspaper is/was run by anti-American morons as well?

Well, the entire idea of a conspiracy theory is to experiment with loose ends - We thought this was noise, if this is signal, then what?

[msxyz]

Originally Posted by Vitesse

Thanks TLAM Strike for the URL advice.


I'd always understood that the Kursk was sunk by internal torpedo detonation. I take it that is the official version? IIRC, similar designs had been dropped in the west because of hot run accidents.

The massive damage seen in the photo is clearly the result of the detonation of one or more torpedoes inside the submarine. Not an external explosion, nor water pressure (the submarine sunk in 110m of water)

Whatever caused it IS the true matter of the debate.

An explosion of a "renegade torpedo" launched by mistake by a nearby vessel? A hard collision with the seafloor triggering a premature explosion of one of the warheads? A leak in the hydrogen peroxide tanks of one of the torpedoes? Sabotage? Incompetence? Maybe the truth will be never known.

[Kapitan]

Ok for a start i have seen pictures of kursk with the bow damage before salvage, this is totaly not a torpedo attack the ballistics are entirely wrong for a start the hole you see is back towards compartment 3 and 4, a torpedo explosion is the cause i have spent 10 years researching Kursk and the disaster and the evedence shows that had a MK 48 been responcible it wouldnt have sunk the submarine, the submarine is built like a typhoon although lacks twin pressure hulls, the kursk is able to come to the surface thanks to its 32% reserve bouyancy and there fore the disaster would not have happened in such a catastrophic way.

I have sources within the russian navy who yes spun this scenario off, they are the old die hard communist who still wants war with america.
The photos i have seen show explosive outwards damage to the forward starbord side of the bow so the torpedo went off in tube 1 or 3 ripping upwards, in the said pictures you can clearly make out peeled back metal of the kursks damaged bow.

Again ballistics does not support the idea a torpedo from a forign vessel sinking the entire submarine, the thing was designed to take atleast one direct hit and still be able to make surface, whats more the MK48 ADCAP detonates under the ship in normal circumstancies, this pushes the hull upwards breaking its back.

againg there had already been several instancies with a certain type of torpedo used in the fleet and they had known flaws and problems.
We know from records that a 65-76 fat girl torpedo was onboard and are commonly used for training torpedos, the said torpedo was built in march 1976 and had recieved little maintinance between 1988 and 2000, we also know the torpedo when loading was dropped on the quayside as the cradle gave way and couldnt support it, it was loaded on any way.

Given the state of the torpedo and its age and the fact its fuel is also corrosive it is incredibly possible and most plausable that a fuel leak (Hydrogen peroxide) met with copper components and reacted causing immence pressure in the torpedo finally exploding and causing a fire.
Now the british tested hydrogen peroxide in the 1950's and found the exact same results, further more in 2002 a scenario was put to a british scientist on behalf of the discovery channel UK he showed a small amount of Hydrogen peroxide aprox 10ml mixed with a small amount of copper in a test tube that is sealed like a torpedo will explode with great force.

Another thing stationed some 140 miles infront was the SSBN K114 also taking part in the exercise who picked up the explosion, there were atleast 15 ASW units in the area they would have sniffed a forign submarine and yes they did know who was where, two US submarines and also a british submarine were known to be in the area, and also swedish submarine was in the near area.

Should the americans or british or swedish fired on kursk they would have retaliated they were firing off live weapons at the time kursk went down, whats more peter the great who was just 12 miles away would have heard a torpedo run and also the ASW escorts beside and behind would have heard, if unshedualed the torpedo would have been hostile and a fully sweep would have been conducted to weed out any forign intruders.

The reason a US submarine was photographed in norway is quite simple and is not un common, dropping off intelligence material to be flown back to the USA damage would have been apparent on thier satalites, and whats more photos of the submarine reveled no damage.
Further more any collission between a western submarine and kursk would have led to severe damage, kursk is 18,000tonnes when submerged unlike the 7,000ton US submarine. and 5,000ton british, the damage would have been severe enough that the submarine would had to have surfaced, the kursk is a hefty lump and moving like she was would garentee your going to damage another vessel if a collision occours badly.

I can honestly say after my 10 years of research, the photos i have seen, the people i have spoken to the evedence laid out from both sides.
A torpedo from a forign submarine never caused this accident.

[ETR3(SS)]

Couldn't have put it better myself Kapitan!

[Dowly]

Excellent post Kapitan!

[TLAM Strike]

An interesting PowerPoint on just how powerful a Mk 48 torpedo is.

If it can do that, that little hole is nothing.

[Kapitan]

Couldnt down load it TLAM, but the thing is if one did hit kursk the metal would be pointing inwards too look at the picture its bent slightly outwards conclusive of an internal explosion.

Whats more when Hydrogen peroxide is alight in a small sapce it just keeps reacting and can cause fires, and this has been known for 60 years at the time, and well the amount of torpedos onboard in a very hot super heated compartment with no room to expand would have built up pressure inside, either detonated torpedo fuel or warheads or both and thus giving you the second devastating blast.

Whats more apparent is when they raised kursk they noted the air conditioning ducts were charred and thick black ash and soot inside the vents meaning a fire of some kind forward, this would also prove that no MK48 had been involved, because if the 48 had detonated outside there would have been no fire, the water would have quenched that in seconds.
And the front would remained largely intact with a penetration hole in one side.

The notion the MK48 penetrated inside the submarine is also rubbish, the first hull is about 1/3 inch thick steel coated with 6 inches of rubber, then you have a 2.2 meter gap with support stantions then the main pressure hull which is half inch thick steel so some how a torpedo doing 55 knots and wieghs 2 tons has got to penetrate that i think not even a standard shape charge would only cut one hull open she will still float.

You have to understand the americans are a conveniant excuse for the russian mishaps, the do not like or tolerate failure and will cover it up to try and save face.
also the admiral who made the rediculas claims about a forign torpedo later went on to say the peter the great was in danger of blowing up was repremanded for this (later dismissed after the PTG incident) he liked to stir the crap as it were and so you got these stories.

Admiral Popov resigned from the navy he was commander in chief and now sits in parliment on the upper bench (kremlin).

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Couldnt down load it TLAM...

Strange, works for me.

Here is an alternate link.

[Kapitan]

thanks sorted good powerpoint !

[msxyz]

Heh, to think the Germans wanted to build submarines running on 200+ tons of concentraded hydrogen peroxyde.

At home I have a few flasks of 50% stabilized hydrogen peroxide I use for bleaching wood and decapping paint off models. Even if it's stabilized, dropping reactive metals like copper or silver in it will result in a nice fountain spray, just like a shaked bottle of Coke. Dense fumes of pure oxygen will develop from the boiling liquid

It's also quite corrosive to the skin and it will ruin any tissue it will come in touch with. Nice substance!