UN to open 'probe' on US housing crisis

[CaptainHaplo]

Mookie - yes, banks own some level of responsibility.

But - no one held a gun to the head of the person digging themselves deeper and deeper in debt.

Ultimately, the decision rested with that person, they made the wrong decisions. Others - banks - may have made such decisions possible, but no one but the individual is responsible.

Its like saying a gun maker is responsible for someone getting a gun and then going to rob a liquer store. The person committing ther crime, or in the case of housing and overall debt - the person living beyond their means, has to take the final responsibilty.

[August]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

- the person living beyond their means, has to take the final responsibilty.

At least until they declare bankruptcy and start the process over again.

but no one but the individual is responsible.

Errrrrrr....no
It really is a simple sum, think about it.

[CaptainHaplo]

Well, bankruptcy has its own price, thankfully. The strengthening of the personal bankruptcy rules was something long overdue.

The issue in the OP remains - the UN has no legal authority to probe an internal US matter. Its nothing more than a political, bash America witchhunt.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Mookie - yes, banks own some level of responsibility.

But - no one held a gun to the head of the person digging themselves deeper and deeper in debt.

Ultimately, the decision rested with that person, they made the wrong decisions. Others - banks - may have made such decisions possible, but no one but the individual is responsible.

Its like saying a gun maker is responsible for someone getting a gun and then going to rob a liquer store. The person committing ther crime, or in the case of housing and overall debt - the person living beyond their means, has to take the final responsibilty.

I don't disagree with you on some level, but this still isn't the root and end cause of the problems. Things were as bad as they were due to massive overleveraging on the part of the large investment banks (just to illustrate: Bear Stearns was at a 35 to 1 leverage ratio when it collapsed, meaning that a 2.85% drop in the value of your assets would wipe out all of your available capital) as well as the unchecked growth of derivative products like credit default swaps. The loan defaults were the catalyst, and if they had been taken on their own, the system would have been able to absorb it. But what brought down the house of cards was the greed and poor business practices of the banks.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Run Barney run....

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Errrrrrr....no
It really is a simple sum, think about it.

Sure the individual is responsible. Welcome to the "Take Responsibiliy For Your Actions or Inactions Club." If it is not the individuals irresponsible actions then whos? Will anyone take any responsibility for anything anymore?

[CaptainHaplo]

Mookie - I think we agree that the financial institutions dug their own holes as well. Yes, they are responsible for that.

However, had the PEOPLE been living within their means, the housing market wouldn't have crashed, because the homeowners would have been able to make their payments.

The financial industry would have still crumbled, but I think that there would have been much more significant resistance to bailing out banks if there had not been the issue of the housing market. After all, we had to bail out the banks to fix the housing market supposedly. And the supposedly came from Bush, not Obama.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Mookie - I think we agree that the financial institutions dug their own holes as well. Yes, they are responsible for that.

However, had the PEOPLE been living within their means, the housing market wouldn't have crashed, because the homeowners would have been able to make their payments.

The financial industry would have still crumbled, but I think that there would have been much more significant resistance to bailing out banks if there had not been the issue of the housing market. After all, we had to bail out the banks to fix the housing market supposedly. And the supposedly came from Bush, not Obama.

Yes, the first check was cut by Bush.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

However, had the PEOPLE been living within their means, the housing market wouldn't have crashed, because the homeowners would have been able to make their payments.

[sarcasm on]
Hmm, I'm just wondering what would happen if a country lived beyond it's means..... That would cause a crash in the end that would let this crisis look like child's play.
[sarcasm off]
BTW this is neither directed at CH nor at America alone. I think the entire western world is guilty of that.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

However, had the PEOPLE been living within their means, the housing market wouldn't have crashed, because the homeowners would have been able to make their payments.

If the banks and mortgage brokers had been doing their job in loan underwriting, people would never have been approved for loans they could not pay back.

[Platapus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo
However, had the PEOPLE been living within their means, the housing market wouldn't have crashed, because the homeowners would have been able to make their payments.

If the banks and mortgage brokers had been doing their job in loan underwriting, people would never have been approved for loans they could not pay back.

The two do not have to be exclusive of each other. There is plenty of blame to go around.

[CaptainHaplo]

Your right Platypus - they are not mutually exclusive.

However, while it may be unethical to exploit the "I want it right now" greed of people, which is what financial institutions did by making high risk loans, there was nothing illegal about it. It was however, a financial risk which fell through. This is why I don't think they should have been bailed out.

Just as that policy cost the banks (or at least should have) - the policy is costing those who lived beyond their means.

What really bugs me is that the "bailouts" could have been done with a lot more wisdom and effect.

Lets look at JUST the Bush $700 Billion Dollar Bailout signed October 3, 2008. At the time it was signed - there was an estimated 740,000 foreclosure filings for the 2nd calendar quarter. If you extrapolate that out to cover the entire 2008-2010 period it would equal roughly 5,920,000 foreclosures that will have occured between January 2008 and January 2010. The future date is important to consider. Bear with me.
With those numbers, every home that would have been in foreclosure during that entire time - including now and into the next two months - could have gotten a bit over $118,000.00 credit to their mortgage. I can't think of all but the most heinous of irresponsible financial behavior in which that amount would not keep a family in their home. At the least, that amount should have pretty much stopped ALL foreclosures for 2 years.

(Sources: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/jul2008/fore-j26.shtml and http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95336601 )

Now - I am NOT advocating that should have occured - because it would have encouraged more people to just "not make the payments". So what would have been a smarter answer?

While I disagreed with the bailout altogether - if your going to spend taxpayer money, use it wisely.

Set it up so that if your making under 6 figures and your in trouble, the government would allow you to apply to have help with your mortgage. Yes, there could be a tiered system - if you have a 500k house, and you make 99k a year with no kids - then you probably need a smaller place... If your making 45k a year, have a 200k home, and three kids, your gonna get some help.

Here is how the help would occur though. You apply, and if you meet the guidelines, then you pay the PRINCIPLE of the loan, the government pays the interest, but the rate is capped. The fund would also be able to - via guidelines, "catch you up" with a maximum of 3 full payments if your that far behind. The program would have a finite timeframe, say a manditory review every 6 months. It would also mandate a 1 year time frame in which the lender and homeowner needed to modify the existing loan to a fixed rate.

(ARM loan terms have been the real culprit)

The beauty of this is simple. The banks would be forced with a hard choice. Foreclose, they lose out on the payments, meaning they face having to liquidate, which hurts their bottom line. Sure, if they accept they lose some of the interest profit, but that loss is alot less than the expense of a foreclosure (~$50,000.00 to forclose and remarket) and subsequent short sale. Besides - they deserve to take the loss when they were using predatory lending practices.

The time and fixed rate gives the homeowner the opportunity to find a way to carry forward, making changes in their personal financial policies. Yes, some people would not change, and be right back in the hole - but this would be a one shot deal. You don't make your own changes, sorry for you. This puts a level of responsibility back on the homeowner as well.

Now it would have had its drawbacks, one being the obvious problem of using MY taxes to bail out other people. The other is it could be argued that it merely postponed the inevitable. However, doing this would remove the "housing foreclosure" issue entirely - and as a country, we would have something to show for the 700 Billion from Bush and the 275 Billion from Obama.

Again, I disagree with bailouts period, but if there is a movement to use taxes to help the people - lets help the people, instead of "rescue" investors who need their PROFITS rescued - not the original investments.

I don't have a problem laying part of the blame with those greedy investors, or the banks who yanked up the ARM rates as high and as quick as they could. But the majority has to lie with the person who signed on the bottom line. Want to fix the problems - then address the root cause, help people have some breathing room so they can learn to correct their mistakes. When that breathing room is done, they sink or swim on their own.

Its about time people started taking responsibility for their actions, while at least using the money for something that will actually HELP.That way, your and my tax money isn't needed for any more "bailouts".

Just out of curiosity - does anyone know of any REAL, TANGIBLE results from any of that nearly $1 Trillion dollars? I haven't seen any.....

Sure the individual is responsible. Welcome to the "Take Responsibiliy For Your Actions or Inactions Club."

Warhawk .
Look at what was written and what that was a response to.
You are creating a strawman.

If it is not the individuals irresponsible actions then whos?

There are more players than just an individual in the equation.

Haplo , a tangible result of that money was to slow the rate of forclosures.
Forclosures on that scale would have crated a downward spiral that fed itself. The result would have been that even the most prudent mortage holder would have ended up with a debt on a worthless asset.